Maori Water rights

[aotealotl]

What a shame the Ironman New Zealand organisers lack the mettle of their competitors.

What a shame they agreed to bribe the tribe.

What a shame they did not reply to the Tuwharetoa extortion demand of $58,000 thus:

Dear tribe,

Get stuffed. We refuse to pay you so much as a bent cent to swim in our largest lake. And it is our lake. Not your lake. It belongs to us. All of us. All the people of New Zealand.

You claim that Lake Taupo is a taonga. (Let’s face it, you claim anything you can extort money for is a taonga.)

How very conveniently you use the modern meaning of that word, and not the 1840 meaning. And yet surely, if you’re talking Treaty rights, it would be only fair to use the meaning current at the time of the Treaty? Of course, we know your tribe did not sign the Treaty. But they were happy, were they not, to accept all the wonderful benefits of modern civilization that flowed from it? Just as their descendants are happy to use it to screw money from their fellow citizens. But back to the meaning of taonga, circa 1840. You see, we looked it up. And what did we find? In the only dictionary current at the time of Te Tiriti, taonga was defined as ’property procured by the spear’. And the man who defined it for Cambridge University was none other than the great Ngapuhi warrior chief Hongi Hika, in England looking for guns.

You want a second opinion? Then let’s take the next dictionary, published in 1844 — four years after the Treaty.

Same thing: taonga: ‘property’.. Nothing about treasure. Or wind. Or radio waves. Or lake waves. Taonga to your part-ancestors was their stuff. It was their chattels. The cloaks they dressed in. The hooks they fished with. The tomahawks they butchered their slaves with. It most certainly was not their whole ecosystem. It was not their language. It was not everything their great-grandchildren would one day take a shine to. You cannot spear a lake. “So if you want us to bribe you to swim in that lake, you’re out of luck. On behalf of all decent New Zealanders, who, unlike you, have a highly developed sense of fair play, we will cancel this event for good rather than submit to your bribery and corruption.

When the mayor and citizens of Taupo deservedly condemn you for your greed, do not blame anyone but yourselves.

Let your greed be on your conscience, if you have one. Unlike you, we do not believe New Zealanders should have to pay a licence fee for the use of their country.

Taupo mayor Rick Cooper says your moneygrubbing makes him feel sick.

He is not alone. All of your fair-minded countrymen are sick and tired of being shafted by two-bit tribal racketeers.

[Godly3vil]

Cool story bro.

Have to admit I completely agree with everything that letter says and stands for.

[alanmin4304]

Interesting thoughts. Another thought would be that if the crown (those representing all the people of NZ) gave ownership of the lake (including water, lake bed and air above it) to Ngati Tuwharetoa then they own it and can do with it what they like. You have as much right of access to the lake as you do to have an uninvited BBQ on your next door neighbour's front lawn. They are as entitled to rent their property as you are. We are talking about the meaning of the word ownership in 2007 and 2013. I am sure the meaning is the same today as it was in 1840. Do you think the government should buy it back? The price may have gone up because they may not wish to sell their lake. Perhaps we should take more notice of what the crown is doing on our behalf or they should relocate the ironmen.

[camtang]

Get that in ya!

[Rabbit]

Holding my tongue!

[alanmin4304]

Us maoris got to stick together eh bro.

[calculator]

You want a second opinion? Then let’s take the next dictionary, published in 1844 — four years after the Treaty.

Same thing: taonga: ‘property’.. Nothing about treasure. Or wind. Or radio waves. Or lake waves. Taonga to your part-ancestors was their stuff. It was their chattels. The cloaks they dressed in. The hooks they fished with. The tomahawks they butchered their slaves with. It most certainly was not their whole ecosystem. It was not their language. It was not everything their great-grandchildren would one day take a shine to. You cannot spear a lake. “So if you want us to bribe you to swim in that lake, you’re out of luck. On behalf of all decent New Zealanders, who, unlike you, have a highly developed sense of fair play, we will cancel this event for good rather than submit to your bribery and corruption.

You have an interesting concept of 'property' there. You are arguing that they can not own lakes or water ways or 'ecosystems'. The logical conclusion of this is that you can not own land either (I think you would find a lot of angry NZer's if you tried to tell them that land and houses they bought isnt their's). If you cant own land then things that you build on it (houses) are obviously in the 'not owned' category either. That seems to my 'western' perspective that ownership of lakes by calling it property makes sense.

Even the first definition you gave of taonga they could have owned it

taonga was defined as ’property procured by the spear’

Land and lakes is able to be 'property procured by the spear’ as the literal meaning of this is that they claimed the land through conquest either from the previous inhabitants or from the 'wilderness'.

My point is that I find your argument a bit painfull to read as you are using the definition of taonga to claim that they don't have the right to demand usage charges, but they do as all of NZ can be called property, and your definitions of Taonga can say that all of NZ is it. They also have a valid claim to the lake through ancestral rights, and it was given to them by the crown in 2007. So they are well within there rights to claim that ussage charges need to be paid the same way as farmers have the right to charge to if you want to run over/around there farm.

[alanmin4304]

In a previous life when I was working out in the country some townies decided to have a BBQ and picnic on a nice piece of a farmers land. He was a little miffed that they did not ask and traced the reg of their vehicle to their address. His family turned up with the BBQ in town and some pretty lively discussions were held I am told.

[Rabbit]

Us maoris got to stick together eh bro.

LMAO im on the other side "Bro" lol

[alanmin4304]

On the other side of what though?

[Bishop]

Interesting thoughts. Another thought would be that if the crown (those representing all the people of NZ) gave ownership of the lake (including water, lake bed and air above it) to Ngati Tuwharetoa then they own it and can do with it what they like. You have as much right of access to the lake as you do to have an uninvited BBQ on your next door neighbour's front lawn. They are as entitled to rent their property as you are. We are talking about the meaning of the word ownership in 2007 and 2013. I am sure the meaning is the same today as it was in 1840. Do you think the government should buy it back? The price may have gone up because they may not wish to sell their lake. Perhaps we should take more notice of what the crown is doing on our behalf or they should relocate the ironmen.

Too lazy to reply fully, but this is pretty much on point , well said.

It does raise a question of morality and division but that's one for another day I think.

At the end of the day if they are charging $4 extra for each competitor then the price of admission goes up $4. Small price to pay really.

[alanmin4304]

I think they were asking $40 per entry but the principle is still the same. They may not of settled on that amount though.

[Godly3vil]

Anyone else feel like they should be receiving the goods that the European settlers paid the natives for their land etc. back? I wouldn't mind a 18th century musket to hang on my wall or a nice flock of sheep etc.

The fact of the matter as I see it is we are all supposed to be one nation, not a nation of split nationalities that argue and fight over the rights to who owns what. Some Maori are the most selfish, racist people on this earth if you ask me, quite happy to accept and take but not happy to share. Go back to living in huts and hunting with spears if they want to live like this. It's called being civilized and evolving into a respectable part of modern society. Not alienating themselves from the majority.

[alanmin4304]

I would say this is a very good demonstration of how much the have become "brown europeans." The pakeha, being mainly of the christian faith (aka lets all feel guilty together because we were all born sinners) have made themselves feel better by paying for the sins of their forefathers. They have paid the lake and other things in compensation for previous wrongs. By giving the lake the crown has probably saved millions of dollars in monetary compensation. The local iwi have demonstrated how well they adapted to the pakeha way by charging rent for their lake like any good capitalist pakeha would do. Brown pakeha.

[Godly3vil]

I find the word pakeha offensive.

I prefer being called a kiwi thank you.

It should be if you are born in NZ you are a New Zealander, not a Maori, not an Asian, not an Islander, not a European - A KIWI. ONE NATION. ONE PEOPLE.

[camtang]

The word Tauiwi is a much better representation than pakeha. Thats what I use to identify myself when I am in class, I like you godly would prefer Kiwi.

I pose the question to you, What if you were not born in NZ, how do you identify yourself then?

[livingart]

kiwi

[Godly3vil]

It is entirely up to you what you would call yourself, an immigrant or kiwi in my opinion is fine. My fathers 1st wife was born in Britain but raised in NZ and she is definitely a kiwi but is also proud of her British birth and ancestry.

[camtang]

What if you were born in NZ, but prefer your Togan heritage?

I think calling your self an imigrint is a little belittling and opressing. If I was born overseas and relocated I dont think I would like to forget my heritage by calling myself an imigrint

[Ira]

What if you were born in NZ, but prefer your Togan heritage?

Why would you do that?

What if you were not born in NZ, how do you identify yourself then?

Alaskan.

[camtang]

:rotf: :rotf: opps I meant Tongan.

[alanmin4304]

There is nothing I find offensive about the word pakeha. Some people have claimed over a beer with their uninformed mates that it has all sorts of hidden meanings. I have been informed by a very senior and respected member of Ngai Tahu that it means stranger, or more particularly strange person. I don't find that offensive. If you were a native on the beach digging for pipi when you saw a sailing ship loaded with europeans in funny uniforms and carrying sticks that went bang, gave off smoke and killed people, you would probably have thought of them as strange as well. I think it describes my family better than europeans who are people from europe. My children are strange people---part maori,australian aborigine,welsh, english, scottish, irish, russian jew and the surname is french. My grandaughter has all that and west indian as well. Pakeha sums it up better I think. Each one to their own.

[blueether]

I would say this is a very good demonstration of how much the have become "brown europeans." ... The local iwi have demonstrated how well they adapted to the pakeha way by charging rent for their lake like any good capitalist pakeha would do. Brown pakeha.

This is not a new concept to Māori:

"[the] Waitangi Tribunal ... found that Māori customary law includes a degree of commercial use." McHugh, 1991

"...Māori held a property right in traditional fishing grounds." McHugh, 1991

[alanmin4304]

The local Ngai Tahu always say prayers before going on to Kaitereke spit by lake ellesmere because so many people are buried there from fighting over the great kai reserves of te waihora so they certainly regarded particularly food resources as possessions. I don't think that changes much---they still own the lake.Taupo that is.

[Godly3vil]

Just because you don't find the word pakeha offensive does not mean that I do not Alan, I vaguely remember another topic featuring the word whore and you being offended by it, and others including me not. Different strokes for different folks eh.

Here's a great article on the word pakeha;

http://maorinews.com/writings/papers/other/pakeha.htm

Makes it seem that your senior and respected friend didn't quite know the actual meaning either Alan....

Also I know it doesn't confirm the word meaning white pig but that is what I learnt it meant growing up so in my mind it will always be associated with that. Some people also use it thinking that is what it means so it can be used as a derogatory comment.