JaSa Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 Wish we would see some of them over here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flosty Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 Interesting looking guppy. What strains are coming in nowadays Guppies seem to be so fragile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaSa Posted January 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Guppies seem to be so fragile Imports yes. Just think of the jouney and changes in water, temperature, food, medicine (or not), and housing they had? Then at the LFS there is a net (that is used in other tanks :-? ) every hour that get's them in panic over and over again. For weeks they can't relax - all stressed out and it doesn't take much to knock them out... Another picture - young ones this time: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbit Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Imports yes. Just think of the jouney and changes in water, temperature, food, medicine (or not), and housing they had? Then at the LFS there is a net (that is used in other tanks :-? ) every hour that get's them in panic over and over again. For weeks they can't relax - all stressed out and it doesn't take much to knock them out... Genetics play more of a factor than the above statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaSa Posted January 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Okay... So enlighten us with your list of "hard" strains and "weak" strains we get or have over her in NZ. Or at least tell us what trait or combination of traits make them weak. Then we will find some breeders of these strains or work with these traits you named and get their opinions concerning the vitality. Because putting the general term "genetics" out there without any proof is just JaSa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godly3vil Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 I agree with Rabbit, how is it JaSa that the offspring of my imported guppies seem quite weak and die quite easily then when they have never gone through the process you described? Must be genetics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaSa Posted January 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 I don't say it is not the case. But proof would be good. Since you have some of these weak fish we can start right here to set up a DB of weak strains / traits + how many generations they have been line-breed. This could be a very interesting thing if people put their experience with their strains in here. JaSa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F15hguy Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 I agree with Rabbit, how is it JaSa that the offspring of my imported guppies seem quite weak and die quite easily then when they have never gone through the process you described? Must be genetics. I'd put my money on it being that they are highly inbred, then crossing again would make them even weaker. maybe try outcrossing the imported stock a couple of times then work on making the strain pure again. that way when the next shipment comes in you have something similar to cross it with instead of "pairs" that probably come from the same parents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 genetics can include a predisposition to a disease or weakness in immunity there are many factors to take into account out crossing is the answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaSa Posted January 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Genetics can be the reason - but I don't buy it. Do you know why? Look at the whole thing through the eyes of a commercial overseas guppy breeder that lives from exporting fish AND from the view of the importers here in NZ AND from the view of the LFS: The breeder has to earn money. He is earning money by selling fish. The more fish he can produce with less food, energie, water, medicine, ... the bigger his margin. Now he needs customers to sell them. Once found he want's to keep his customers happy + he wants even more customers to sell more fish. The last thing he wants are complains from them (or even loose them) due to dead shippments. So he will - no, he HAS to purely because of financial reasons - make sure his strains are fertile, healthy, grow fast and are robust and fit. Do you really think a commercial guy that breeds fish with a "predisposition to a disease or weakness in immunity" will be in business for long? He will get ABUSED big time by the import people that have to spend a fortune to keep them for 6 weeks in quarantine and have to watch their shippment die or have the LFS ringing up later complaining about dead fish and unhappy customers. Well, at least I complain about shitty products and swap store. But could be the importers and LFS are different and like to loose money, dunno ... JaSa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godly3vil Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 In an ideal world that would be correct JaSa, on the other hand with guppies being a reasonably cheap fish some people with no morals might not mind if their strains are weak and don't last long as the majority of people who keep guppies don't care enough to question why their fish keep dying and just keep shelling out more money for replacements. In some ways this is called good business practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 The way many breeders and exporters in Asia (where most of our imports are from) can obtain and use antibiotics and other meds would likely make them less worried about a predisposition to disease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaSa Posted January 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Haven't read a single word from any one here that would proof the genetic theory but you guys MUST be right. Excuse my naive theory about stressed and hence vulnerable fish due to transport, different water, food and housing. It must be 100% genetics since so many people belive in it. I also believe you that Importers and LFS are creaming it so they don't have to care about their product and their loss by selling knowingly sick fish to customers and that this is called "good business practice" here in NZ. Further I believe you guys that the breeders happily decreases their margin by buying antibiotics and other meds so they can go on breeding infertile, slow growing, sick fish for export. I will be a good sheep from now on and humbly follow the flock... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Guppies are known to carry viruses , so it is likely that when then get stressed it weakens the the fish. I would find it to believe that antibiotics would be used as it is expensive and from experience it is not worth treating fish as treatments always seem to have limited results. Also viruses can't be cured. In the last years the culture of guppy has faced very serious health problems, mainly in southeast Asia. The exact causes are not known, but is believed to be a viral disease or Tetrahymena infection. In order to keep the farms in Israel at a high level of sanitation, each farm is isolated from the other with no connection in the water system among them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flosty Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Genetics are obviously very important The guppies posted by Jasa are very healthy looking guppies You can bet your bottom dollar these have been line bred many generations and they are still very healthy looking fish Guppies are known to carry viruses , so it is likely that when then get stressed it weakens the the fish. I would find it to believe that antibiotics would be used as it is expensive and from experience it is not worth treating fish as treatments always seem to have limited results. Also viruses can't be cured. Is it a virus or just a bacteria?antibiotics are expensive(prescription needed) in this country but bought off the shelf in others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbit Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 JaSa, it seem's you have an overly active temper and seeing you have no evidence behind your "Theory" i feel very little need to prove mine. Having been in 2 of the 3 industries you spoke of for a ten year period, i dare say i have more of a reference point then yourself. Not to mention there have been replies in this very thread from 2 importers. Find yourself an LFS that has been around as long as the hobby in NZ and ask them if the strains have become Weaker. Notice that the death toll on guppy's has a tendency to be higher than that of fancy tetras? Why? there both small? flight easily, guppy's require a neutral ph easily achieved fancy tetras preferring an acidic tannin stained environment i doubt you will find in any import/ quarantine. Why is there so many other species of line bred fish in NZ that don't have a death toll this high? they come through the same process?, maybe you should prove to me the effect's of stress over a diverse class of fish?. You may also want to note that the fish pictured carries the albino gene notably already a weakened fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krisy Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Hi, does anyone no where i can get some different types of guppies?? I currently have some Albino, Snakeskin, tuxedo and couple other cool looking ones ( not sure of breed ). Love to get some neons, mosaic, moscow, platnium. Anything that has amazing colour and tails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 There is a reason why guppies are included on the list of fish which will require more stringent quarantine. They can carry a number of diseases. These diseases may have a long incubation period or be carried asymptomatically. When a fish is stressed these disease may well present as the fish will have a weakened immune system. I bought some guppies from a breeder that I have a lot of respect for and he diliberately stressed the fish and treated them before sending them. I wouldn't do that myself but everyone to their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 There is a reason why guppies are included on the list of fish which will require more stringent quarantine. They can carry a number of diseases. These diseases may have a long incubation period or be carried asymptomatically. When a fish is stressed these disease may well present as the fish will have a weakened immune system. I bought some guppies from a breeder that I have a lot of respect for and he diliberately stressed the fish and treated them before sending them. I wouldn't do that myself but everyone to their own. Why did they do that? Sorry I cant quite get the theory behind that in my head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 To bring out any disease that was asymptomatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Sorry I read that as in they stressed the fish threw in some meds and packed them up and sent them all in the same process. As apposed to stressed them, found the carriers treated them then sent them over a period of time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 he diliberately stressed the fish and treated them before sending them. has no logic Guppies are susceptible to Iridoviruses and this is likely cause of deaths. when buying them best to further quarantine then for a few weeks before adding to your tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 I wouldn't bother doing it--can't see the point either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheepsnana Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Haven't read a single word from any one here that would proof the genetic theory but you guys MUST be right. Excuse my naive theory about stressed and hence vulnerable fish due to transport, different water, food and housing. It must be 100% genetics since so many people belive in it. I also believe you that Importers and LFS are creaming it so they don't have to care about their product and their loss by selling knowingly sick fish to customers and that this is called "good business practice" here in NZ. Further I believe you guys that the breeders happily decreases their margin by buying antibiotics and other meds so they can go on breeding infertile, slow growing, sick fish for export. I will be a good sheep from now on and humbly follow the flock... No-one is saying that stress is not a factor. Many people think that genetics is a larger factor. I've had this argument before, but here we go again... When importing fish, the importer wants to sell as much of their stock as possible. If they have a beautiful strand, that almost no-one else has, then they are likely to sell their whole batch. If those fish are fertile, and breed easily (as guppies tend to do), then repeat sales will be low (due to local sales of next generation fish). If those fish are infertile, or have offspring that do not match the parents, then the importer is going to have a better chance at selling their next batch. I do not condone this behavior. I am merely pointing out that it happens. Not all importers do this, but some do. As for sick fish, there are big quarantine hoops to jump through, especially with guppies, which are known to carry diseases. The importer is not trying to make his fish sick. That does not mean that they are perfectly healthy. He needs them to be healthy enough to get through quarantine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueether Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 I can almost guarantee that the imported fish will be in antibiotics all their life. I have no experience in fish but in another industry I have worked in overseas where antibiotics were all but banned (but not tested for) they were routinely used by some to treat both disease and prophylactically Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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