disgustipated Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 this is what bugs me. i can choose to get totally drunk. why can't i choose to get stoned? my actions after getting drunk, or after (hypothetically;) getting stoned are also my choice. there are ways of testing for cannabis, same as there are for alcohol. as for the $$$ for government, and as NZ's climate is the one of the best in the world for growing pot outdoors... imagine the money a hemp industry would bring in to this country. literally billions. how much is our government in debt? i also note that smoking strains of cannabis grown just for hemp do not get you stoned, they have such a low THC content that there would be no point in smoking it. a lot of the money from alcohol are going to overseas companies. a pot industry would see money directly into the pockets of the lowly north island farmer, instead of into the pockets of already rich alcohol companies. i retract my statements about anti legalisers being idiots. you're right it's not a good way to debate. misled, i think is a better word... 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted October 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 What's curious to me is that there appear to be huge numbers of people who either use or have used the stuff as a recreational drug, yet no political party apart from the Legalize cannabis one are willing to take this on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 How do they prevent that now? Almost 50% of males aged 18-24 in 1998 admitted to using cannabis within the last 12 months, I bet that number has only gone up. I believe that intoxication isn't an issue, the issue is when that intoxication causes harm. I've seen the effects excess alcohol has on people, vomiting, fighting, crazy emotions etc and people die from drinking too much. Whereas people using cannabis will rarely vomit, will almost never fight, hell it's pretty much the opposite of alcohol. You'd think the lesser of two evils would be encouraged. Legalising won't increase use significantly, the people who wish to use cannabis will continue doing so. The law would just change their criminal status. I don't buy into the "legalising it won't increase use" argument, as has been seen with the increasing number of liquor stores and extended hours availability plays a big part in consumption. You're right in your comparison of a drunk and stoned person, but those are only a few of the short term effects. The key difference, as I said before, is that you don't have to get drunk to enjoy alcohol. There is still much debate on the long-term effects of cannabis and potential cause of bi-polar, schizophrenia, depression etc, but you only have to try work with people who have been heavy users for a long period to see what it can do to a persons brain. Calling it the lesser of two evils is fairly naive, yes on the surface it may seem less harmful than alcohol (at least if compared to binge drinking) but overall there are some pretty negative aspects... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 What do you think blood alcohol is measured for? Yeh but there is so many variedables with blood alcohol, one persons tolerence is diffrent to another, hence why excess doesnt work. A daily alcoholic can drink up 2 bottles of mid strength spirt throughout a day without any visible effects, where someone who doesnt drink may have 6 beers and be rolling round drunk. 6 beers isnt excessive I dont belive but the effects would seem so in this senario. Which is why defining excess is hard. Also why the land transport uses the you can have xx amount per hour only as a guideline as everyone is diffrent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godly3vil Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Alcohol addiction causes more problems then pot addiction - fact. Also David I know some people who smoke pot not to get stoned but because they actually enjoy the taste of it, amazing isn't it. Also I know A LOT of people who have smoked it for 30+ years and are still what all people will call a functioning human being, so saying that long term use causes most users to become "zombies" is pretty naive. I really think the choice should be ours, why is it right for the government to decide what we can and cannot do to our own bodies? Too much like communism if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disgustipated Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Calling it the lesser of two evils is fairly naive, yes on the surface it may seem less harmful than alcohol (at least if compared to binge drinking) but overall there are some pretty negative aspects... bottom line - around 1000 deaths are caused by alcohol every year in new zealand alone. cannabis, in it's 5000 years of use, has never killed anybody. i'm quite sure i am not being naive when i say that cannabis is less harmful than alcohol... noting that alcohol can also cause severe mental issues, depression, even suicide. fact: alcohol causes brain damage! and you can buy it at the local dairy. something is wrong here..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godly3vil Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 How often do you hear about E.R waiting areas being over run with stoned people every weekend? I know for a fact that every weekend E.R's around the country are over run with people who drink too much and cause themselves and others injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disgustipated Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 How often do you hear about E.R waiting areas being over run with stoned people every weekend? I know for a fact that every weekend E.R's around the country are over run with people who drink too much and cause themselves and others injuries. costing our government millions every year... are the $$$ they make from alcohol tax even covering this expense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 a search for the alcohol reform bill will tell you the answer. I did a paper on it last year but cant remember the numbers sorry. and it caused me major headachs last year so dont fell like dredging all over again. either way the numbers were in the billions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted October 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 If we had as easy access to drugs as they do in the USA, our EDs would also be crawling with drug overdoses. If society had no obligation to pick up the pieces after the event, then perhaps people should be allowed to do what they want to themselves. But until that day, access to these things needs to be restricted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F15hguy Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 plus all the $$$ spent on trying to stop pot growers each year would be nothing compared to the taxes they could make out of it, plus they need something to replace the ciggy taxes when they go. we are not talking about harder drugs, just pot. and all the research claiming its a gateway drug are based in countries where it is illegal, none as far as I know have been conducted taking into account that the purchasing of it leads people into the shadier parts of society where hard drugs are more common and acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disgustipated Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 If we had as easy access to drugs as they do in the USA, our EDs would also be crawling with drug overdoses. If society had no obligation to pick up the pieces after the event, then perhaps people should be allowed to do what they want to themselves. But until that day, access to these things needs to be restricted. dude cannabis is the subject here and we all know it's impossible to OD on cannabis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted October 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Was a comment in relation to this why is it right for the government to decide what we can and cannot do to our own bodies? Too much like communism if you ask me. But there is this ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoi ... s_syndrome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 plus they need something to replace the ciggy taxes when they go. :sml1: :sml1: :sml1: :sml1: :sml1: do you really think the gummyment are gunna get rid of ciggos? if they had any intention on that they wold be gone by now. they NEED the $$$$ so they will just keep going up and up and up. If we had as easy access to drugs as they do in the USA We do, you just gota know who to ask and where to go. I am not condoning it, nor do I associate in the circle,but I am sure if i tryed I could find it. much like a lot of everyday "normal" people in society Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disgustipated Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 anybody in NZ can find a place to buy cannabis easily, and help make some gang a lot richer. what i'm advocating here, is no change in the availability of pot, but a change in who profits from it. lets give the profits to the government, instead of the hells angels. disagree? please explain why.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godly3vil Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Was a comment in relation to this But there is this ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoi ... s_syndrome My comment was relating to pot mate, pretty obvious I was not talking about other drugs. You seem to like bringing up stuff that has naught to do with the subject we are debating. Also I fail to see the point in linking that article, we all know it can cause medical problems with prolonged use, the same as any other legally available drug on the market. I'm sure I could find a lot more articles on the damage caused by alcohol then I could caused from pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 I really think the choice should be ours, why is it right for the government to decide what we can and cannot do to our own bodies? Too much like communism if you ask me. Because the government provide things like health care and welfare and therefore are obliged to offer some form of protection of its people from what is deemed harmful (yes I know, then why is alcohol or tobacco legal, etc etc). Its actually called socialism, not communism. If you want to live in a society where the choice is yours I suggest you look up the Libertarianz party, if you wish to have the freedom to make what ever choices you want [providing they don't effect another persons freedom to do the same] then you must also be prepared to endure the consequences of those choices yourself. Sadly, though you and I may be rational and sensible enough to live in a world like that there are vast numbers of people who don't seem to be... bottom line - around 1000 deaths are caused by alcohol every year in new zealand alone. cannabis, in it's 5000 years of use, has never killed anybody. i'm quite sure i am not being naive when i say that cannabis is less harmful than alcohol... noting that alcohol can also cause severe mental issues, depression, even suicide. fact: alcohol causes brain damage! and you can buy it at the local dairy. Those figures are somewhat biased given that things like car crashes can be attributed to being drunk, but not being stoned. AFAIK there isn't a clear cut way to determine if someone is "under the influence" of cannabis at the time of an accident due to the time it lingers in your system, so they can't attribute many accidental deaths to cannabis as they do with alcohol. I would bet my left one there have been many cases where people have crashed cars and died while under the influence of cannabis, the statistics simply aren't recorded like they are for alcohol. Regardless, all of these points you are making isn't reason to legalise cannabis, more so to ban alcohol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godly3vil Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Fair enough David, I understand where you are coming from. Also there are tests that can be done to see if someone has recently smoked pot, last time I went for a job interview they used a swab which picks up THC if you have smoked it in the last 4 hours. I think the breath test that the police use now does the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 I certainly can see the benefits in simply decriminalising the possession of small amounts. In an ideal world we would all have the freedom of choice, and the personal responsibility that goes with it. Sadly, in 21st century NZ we seem to be lacking the latter and that is why I wouldn't support it in reality, despite being in favour theoretically.... And for the record I think alcohol should be subject to far tighter restrictions, despite being a home brewer and avid craft beer drinker. A minimum price would be a good start, and certainly not a blanket tax increase as the greens are proposing. NZ has a blooming craft beer industry that is finally starting to break the monopoly of the two big breweries and educate the general public that there is far more to beer than the insipid brown fizzy stuff they've been drinking for years, and a further tax increase would stymie that. Targeting cheap strong booze would go a long way towards reducing the harm caused by binging, as would enforcing the current law of bars not serving drunks. Doing that without punishing people like me who regularly pay $8-20+ for a 500ml bottle of 6-10% ABV beer to enjoy one at a time in the comfort of my own home is far easier said than done though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disgustipated Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 yeah the cops are using them now, to see if drivers are under the influence, picks up not only cannabis but other harder drugs as well. let's take accidents out of the equation. alcohol is poison, people often die from drinking too much of it. how can the government genuinely say they are protecting us from harm by keeping cannabis illegal, while they not only allow alcohol to advertise where children are present (rugby games, tv etc) but they also vote to keep drinking age at 18 AND disagree with making alcohol companies keep the alcohol content of their drinks to a certain maximum amount. but here i am thinking that we should expect the government to be consistent. rofl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamH Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 I believe that as long as it's classed as a drug, it will be abused as a drug. In the Netherlands it's a common way to socialise and many families smoke cannabis in their own homes, much like a few glasses of wine after dinner. The intention isn't to "get high", trip over your own feet and clear the pantry of all it's worth, the idea is that it's a relaxing and social event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted October 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 We do, you just gota know who to ask and where to go. I am not condoning it, nor do I associate in the circle,but I am sure if i tryed I could find it. much like a lot of everyday "normal" people in society I was meaning prescription narcotics; I should have said so. You know, the stuff that kills pop stars all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 The way some of you are talking it would seem as though cannabis was a wonder drug that only ever had a positive effect on anyone. A little bit of weed at a party on the weekend might not seem like a bad thing to do but I know people who smoke it as much or more than cigarettes and I would say yes, long term and in larger doses it does have a harmful effect. Mood and mind altering and addictive substances are not healthy for the human body or mind. Ask yourself would you want your baby to be near it, or would you want to have your pregnant missus smoking it during pregnancy and you might find you've been overlooking some inconvenient facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamH Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Of course there are risks and it does do damage, I'm simply comparing it to other mind altering substances and it stacks up well against those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godly3vil Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 The way some of you are talking it would seem as though cannabis was a wonder drug that only ever had a positive effect on anyone. A little bit of weed at a party on the weekend might not seem like a bad thing to do but I know people who smoke it as much or more than cigarettes and I would say yes, long term and in larger doses it does have a harmful effect. Mood and mind altering and addictive substances are not healthy for the human body or mind. Ask yourself would you want your baby to be near it, or would you want to have your pregnant missus smoking it during pregnancy and you might find you've been overlooking some inconvenient facts. All fair and well Sophia but we are comparing it to Alcohol, which I do not want my 3 year old daughter around or my pregnant missus (not that she is - touch wood) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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