livebearer_breeder Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 haha sorry, not intentionally trying to be stereotypical, i just start getting lazy and lethargic with my typing when i've been doing it far too long. Just looking at behavioral trends in regards to the "damage" aspect of one substance over another. Cam your obviously a guy, cause this is a very common side men take when this issue gets brought up, i'm a bit of a self proclaimed feminist. so when i see someone say "WOMAN do it to" as if its an excuse, i just get worried, because its not my expressions that are possibly limiting anything, its now yours. To say Alcohol will "not make you violent" when we know it decreases your decision making centers ability to operate and increases your aggression centers is more or less neanderthal. To say that you've never been violent, or even to say that not everyone gets violent "on the booze" doesn't even begin to become an argument when thousands of years of history moves us towards one trend. I wasn't meaning to say that you or I or anyone here gets drunk and goes and beats his family and wife, i was actually being very stereotypical to make a point i guess. but the fact remains that these are still problems and shoving your head in the sand and saying "wasn't me" like shaggy isn't helpful or progressive in the slightest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamH Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 .if you want to hit someone when stoned you will. You could try but depending on how stoned you are, the results may vary :lol: I disagree, alcohol makes someone want to act more violently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livebearer_breeder Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 cam you are partially right. There definatly are people who are pre-disposed to being more violent than others and therefore potentially more violent when drinking. Well i can tell you, having hit people in both states - with the alcohol there is very little thinking required before violence - when stoned, the apprehension and anxiety and amount of over thinking is enough to deter you from any kind of violent act if you can avoid it. With alcohol you can black out and do outrageous things including hurting poeple, with weed you can black out and not remember anything but thats cause you were a sleep. With alcohol your strength is at 120% when being raukus, with weed your minimal effort is required for all activities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livebearer_breeder Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 The disparities in contrast between the two are outrageously large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 You could try but depending on how stoned you are, the results may vary :lol: I disagree, alcohol makes someone want to act more violently Same could be said as to how drunk you are. Alcohol does not MAKE you want to act more violentley. you can not just blame something for your actions Cam your obviously a guy, cause this is a very common side men take when this issue gets brought up, i'm a bit of a self proclaimed feminist. so when i see someone say "WOMAN do it to" as if its an excuse, i just get worried, because its not my expressions that are possibly limiting anything, its now yours. Yes I am a guy and I am very manist, the switch of power is heading toward women and I am rying to stand up for males rites. dont get me wrong I am not using it as an excuse I am trying to make it aware that there is other colporates that the dominant discourse dont advertise. when we know it decreases your decision making centers ability to operate and increases your aggression centers is more or less neanderthal doesnt all mind altering substences do the same thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livebearer_breeder Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Nice sterotype, how about binge on alcohol and you smash your husband and dog. Men are not the only colperates when it comes to binge drinking or spousal abuse for that matter. btw for the record, i am well aware of this, my ex partner was very voilent towards me and closer to the end, towards my dog too. hell hath no fury like a woman :lol: sorry ladies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livebearer_breeder Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 C'mon cam! your a smart guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livebearer_breeder Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 When more of your shellies breed ill buy some off you, ill come for a trip down to nelson and bring my addiction studies in relation to aggression and how it effects these really important small parts of your brain, that you need to not make bad decisions, specifically about alcohol. :bounce: Its just poison with longer lasting and far more detrimental affects on the body mentally and physically than most substances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 I would be very interested in reading them, could you possibly email them to me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 C'mon cam! your a smart guy Thanks I dont often get called smart :happy1: :happy1: i appreciate it :slfg: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Most of this stuff is actually relatively simple to work out. *Yes *"binge" on weed and you fall a sleep ~ binge on alcohol and you smash your wife and children * Under-age drinking and cigarette smoking is always going to be bigger problem than under-age pot smoking. I always loved alcohol as a younger man, cigarettes were easy and made me feel cool, my first experience with pot was not fun or enjoyable as the majority will also say. *The public has been educated on the "harms" since the 30's, now we are learning about all the good that THC and CBD can do for disease and human physiology, so how about instead of us being pessimists which never helps anyone, we start going "wow here is a responsible way to use something", "but how do we do that johnny", "well through the miracle of MEDICAL SCIENCE of course". *How are we ensuring there safety now? is your argument that just because something becomes legal and regulated suddenly we have this society that breaks down into this zombie style POT infection that kills us all cause everyone turns up to work stoned?! it just sounds ridiculous. It is anything but simple to work out, and I challenge you to find factual evidence to substantiate the claims you are making. Take the first point for example, you answered "yes" so simply and confidently, but based on what? I'm not even sure if studies have been done on this or if it would be even possible to predict. Assuming the profit margin and expenses around growing would remain the same on the standard $20 tinnie (in reality I would expect expenses to be higher due to the costs involved with growing and producing something for commercial consumption) how much tax would need to go on top of that to make it comparable to alcohol and tobacco, say 20%? Add GST and you have a legal retailer trying to sell something for nearly a third more than it can already be bought for on the well-established black market. Decriminalising it so an individual could grow a small quantity for personal consumption could partially counter this, but it would also make it easier for people to grow and on-sell for a profit and so we end up with a black market still. Home brew gear for wine beer and spirits is legal and widely available (and very cheap by comparison) yet the vast majority of people still prefer the ease of buying it off the shelf than making (or growing) it themselves. Same could be said for many things, fruit and veges for example. Why would cannabis be different? Second point, you are ignoring the long-term mental health effects that are still not clearly understood. Statistics indicate that if you regularly "binge on weed" you have a higher likelihood of developing psychotic illnesses, as well as an average drop in IQ of 4.1 points for regular heavy users. It still isn't understood if it is caused by the drug use or simply exacerbated by it, but until proven safe I think it is better to take the cautious approach. Saying everyone who binges on alcohol turns violent is also incorrect, yes there is an increase in violent tendencies for some people and that is not to be ignored, but at least try and be rational and present facts rather than hysteria. Third point; again, more facts needed. Studies have shown drug use is far more damaging to a developing brain than an adults, so how do you fathom it isn't a problem? And how can you prove that increased availability won't lead to more availability to under-age use/users? The lowering of the drinking age has shown the flow on effects of that quite clearly. Fourth point, how can the public be educated on the harms of something that is not clearly understood or agreed upon? Fifth point, I agree with you in some part, and perhaps if it were legal more testing would take place which could potentially make the workplace safer. However, if it were legal employers would no longer be able to refuse people employment for testing positive for THC in a pre-employment test. I guess studies and testing would need to be done to determine a "safe" level similar to the blood/alcohol levels for driving, as well as to find out how long the effects last for after the "stoned" feeling has worn off. And if you think I'm making it too complicated try imagine the hoops the government would try make you jump through to prove your point!!! Party Pills now have to be proven safe/low-risk by their manufacturer with scientific documents similar to those required for new medicines. Maybe looking at what is required for them would be a good start if you think it would be "simple" to prove cannabis safe enough to be legalised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamH Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Just take a look at California, they've got it all sorted out, all of those issues you've stated David. Have a look at if you have a spare 40mins and you'll see exactly how it's done. And here's too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livebearer_breeder Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Oh god, This is becoming a chore! David you've gotta understand i answered those very lazily, cause im kinda over answering the same questions and going around and around in the same circles. Fact is you or I do not have enough of the information yet to draw a complete picture, but we do have some basic understandings, this should be enough to make educated decisions. The information your after is definatly available and i can find it, its obviously gonna take me some time to collaborate it all though. for the record though the statistics for mental health issues cause by cannabis use are very low when compared with other substances, some people are also genetically predisposed to being more susceptible to hormonal change in the brain causing mental illness that can be triggered by such things as marijuana, but also by things like cheese, say C'est la vie , and if you think mental health issues are a new phenomenon caused by the smoking of weed then I've got a harsh reality check for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamH Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Oh god, This is becoming a chore! Time to agree to disagree me thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Home brew gear for wine beer and spirits is legal and widely available (and very cheap by comparison) yet the vast majority of people still prefer the ease of buying it off the shelf than making (or growing) it themselves. Homebrew no matter how hard you try,how much practise, how much research and how much you try to mimic the real deal is just not the real deal. And I like you ( I think from memory) brew my own and have for years, but I still cant pash up on a real JD or a nice cold brew from a brewery. Maybe this is the same as home made preserves sauces ect. I much prefer my dad's home made pickled onions over store bought, I think due to the conditioning I have had as a kid. the same could be said for home made alcohol, in most case's mass produced alcohol will be the first thing you drink as a teen not homebrew so you have a taste for that insteed of homebrew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Interesting reading on the California laws, I didn't realise the extento to which they had decriminalised it, although I knew they had been using it medicinally for years. I agree its time to agree to disagree, all I'll say is I don't feel NZ is ready for legalisation/decriminalisation given our current drug problems with both illegal and legal substances, although in principal I agree with the right a persons choice to do as they please with their own body. Changing the subject to something I'd much rather talk about, I can understand how its hard to replicate a bourbon that is aged in charred oak barrels for over ten years, but making beer is far more simple. If you have the right hops, malt and yeast you should be able to replicate just about any beer fairly well. I haven't tried all-grain brewing yet, but using malt extract, grains and hops I've been able to make several very good brews that I would happily drink instead of off-the-shelf beer (especially the common kinds available at most supermarkets/liquor stores!!). Kits are cheap and easy and the results reflect that. Spending a bit more on good malt and hop pellets and the gear to do a good sized boil is money well spent if you want to make good beer. I haven't brewed anything since about febuary due to being way too busy moving etc, but am setting myself up at our new place with a big burner for doing a full 20L boil and an old freezer with an external thermostat so I can control the fermentation temperature. Hopefully that should yeild even better results! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueether Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Only ever made one attempt at home brew beer - from scratch (almost), and it was drinkable. I have brewed a few meads/metheglins and melomels. As a beekeeper I have access to plenty raw materials :cofn: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livebearer_breeder Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Still, your points are valid, easy to say, harder to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheepsnana Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Homebrew: We had a guy come in to work, ask if he can grab some offcuts for firewood. It saves us dumping it, so sure, go for gold. He asked if it was cool if he brought in a trailer. We said sure, no prob. When he was leaving with his trailer load, he brought in a bottle of homebrew for us to say thanks. It was easily the best Bourbon I have ever tried. Legalisation: Regardless of the information you provide to people, it is still people who make the decision. All of these arguments (to me) seem like a good reason to ban alcohol until NZ can sort out their binging attitude, not to give them more choices. If it's all just to feel good, why not legalise opiates too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livebearer_breeder Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Ban alcohol and see what people do. This whole argument has really done its best to shed light on the issues of prohibition, but try as some of us may, as is the usual case, a few just don't listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F15hguy Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 yes..... this whole argument about how to dispose of unwanted fish..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 The only place I have ever met heavy drinkers that think they have a problem is at AA meetings. The same thing applies to heavy pot smokers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted October 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 @blue ... did you see this on TV the other night? http://www.williamswarn.com/The-WilliamsWarn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueether Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 @blue ... did you see this on TV the other night? http://www.williamswarn.com/The-WilliamsWarn No, don't watch much TV - it's the devil's tool to brainwash the masses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted October 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 No, don't watch much TV - it's the devil's too to brainwash the masses. I think you're confused that with alcohol and pot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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