The_Laura Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 I may be making things up here, but doesnt france have one of the highest level of alcoholics in the world? Maybe not alcoholics? Jus high consumption of alcohol. And culturally they are more prone to daily drinking, not necessrily by addiction but it's just the way they are. Wine with every meal haha. I think I read that Mexico and the US had the highest alcohol related deaths through liver failure etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Isnt daily drinking and high consumption two conponents of alcoholism? NZ guidelines says 21 standards in a week is classed as alcoholism, I wonder if that number is diffrent in france And its just the way they are, the same could be said of binge drinking kiwis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 There's a difference between an alcoholic who relies on it daily to get thru the day and a binge drinker who might not touch it during the week and then have 21 standard drinks in one night. I'm not sure on the French statistics but can vouch for the completely different attitude in Germany. Drinking in public isn't uncommon, I watched two middle aged businessmen both drinking beers around lunch time on the train, presumably on a lunch break, walking down the road with a bottle of beer in hand isn't an uncommon sight at all. The beer gardens are fantastic, and the halls are frequented by locals who keep their own steins in a locked vault so they can take it out for a Sunday afternoon session, and the session beers are usually brewed to a lower ABV (3-4%) so you don't get plastered as quickly. Despite all this messy drunks seemed few and far between. Getting as smashed as possible isn't the goal with drinking there, NZ has a lot of growing up to do in that regards... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Agree with David here. My wife is German, and we went to Germany so she could show me off to all the relatives.... completely different mind set when it comes to alcohol.... could even buy hard spirits at the super market with your milk and cheese. I was there during a Fasnacht which is basically a big party celebrating the coming of spring... could buy alcohol everywhere, and people were drinking everywhere.... but no angry messy drunks like you see when going out to town or going around to your brothers on a Saturday night in NZ. Sure there will be some... Europe isn't perfect... they just have a different mind set generally speaking. Maybe it is the way it is in NZ due to the British influence? I know they get hammered in England, Aussie etc similar to NZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 There's a difference between an alcoholic who relies on it daily to get thru the day and a binge drinker who might not touch it during the week and then have 21 standard drinks in one night. 100% agree with you, but I was saying that as a guideline you only have to drink 21 in a week or 3 a night to be a alcoholic, which by the sounds of it is common throughout a lot of the western world. Getting as smashed as possible isn't the goal with drinking there, NZ has a lot of growing up to do in that regards. Again I 100% agree with you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Maybe it is the way it is in NZ due to the British influence? I know they get hammered in England, Aussie etc similar to NZ. I think the 5 oclock swill ( may have the wrong name correct me if it is wrong please) many years ago is a huge contributer to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamH Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 could even buy hard spirits at the super market with your milk and cheese. That sounds like a terrible combination :lol: It's totally an attitude thing, you're spot on with the British, Aus and NZL idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Li@m Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Agree with Mikey, Its Definitely an Attitude thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Laura Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Agree with Mikey as well. Is interesting how it's so different person to person, country to country. Have a friend who is in france as an au pair, and she was saying it's not unusual for them to have a glass of wine with early morning brunch etc, and throughout the day with meals etc, maybe it is their tolerance because if I was drinking with every meal I would be on a slippery slope to plastered :oops: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddle69 Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 :thup: :slfg: :happy2: too true my friend. :thup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disgustipated Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 stoner logic... :facepalm: ahh.. nice stereotype... this explains your stance on the whole thing really. you know that most stoners are not anything like cheech and chong, as the media would have you believe? they are doctors, lawyers, politicians, teachers even police officers. many of them use pot for chronic pain, extreme nausea, and alleviating mental illness. sure, a few people like to smoke all day every day while wearing t shirts with weed leaves on them and never brushing their hair or showering. but they make up just a small percentile of users. I fail to see how more young people with bi-polar and depression aren't problems.... how about being able to restrict cannabis sale to over 18s, having it available for sale from dispensaries with strict rules and fines for those that break them, so that the average joe don't have to meet dealers who will inevitably offer them something harder like P. what about the millions of dollars the taxpayer would save by not having to process people through court systems merely for making a personal choice that is *fact* no where near as damaging as alcohol? how about the revenue that would be bought into this country from a flourishing hemp industry.. how about the fact that the only reason it waws made illegal in the first place, is because some money making industries knew it would put them out of business, and paid the government to take action... i could go on and on, but my point is, i fail to see how good, reasonable arguments like this fall on ears that for some reason even don't have to justify why they overlook the logical reasoning behind legalisation, and simply say stuff like "drugs are bad mmmmmkay" or "stoners are dumb"... therefore helping to keep the weed illegal. do some research man, open your mind because the world is changing and we have to keep up, not stick to reasoning that is decades old... for those interested in bettering their knowledge in order to form an educated opinion, "the union" is a great documentary to watch on the topic. i'm not a stoner. i just don't think you should make your opinions based on what everybody else thinks, or what you've been told or trained to believe by society and the media. find out all the facts first, and then decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamH Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 "the union" is a great documentary to watch on the topic. I agree, it's easily the best and least biased documentaries out there. Simple, to the point and informative. I think it's unfair when people label someone who has tried cannabis a stoner, it's like calling anyone who has a drink an alcoholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 As to wether it is legal/illegal, healthy or unhealthy doesn't get around the point as to why life is so bad that people have to take mind bending drugs to enjoy themselves and then think it is normal to be intoxicated or stoned to a greater or lesser extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 As to wether it is legal/illegal, healthy or unhealthy doesn't get around the point as to why life is so bad that people have to take mind bending drugs to enjoy themselves and then think it is normal to be intoxicated or stoned to a greater or lesser extent. I have found in my line of study and previous work, A lot of people that do take mind ultering drugs on a regular/daily basis claim nothing is wrong when in actual fact there is but they are hiding the issue with intoxicating there minds. I think a great example is people drinking hard spirits or any alcohol for that matter when losing a loved one. very common practise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted October 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Look to the future ... all mind altering drugs will be obsolete .. we'll have wires directly connecting to pleasure centres ... and these people will be called "wire heads". And as a result, electricity will be sold on the black market! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 :sml1: :sml1: :sml1: :sml1: add that to one pill for a meal and your on to something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F15hguy Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 I personally think a large part of our problem here is that the poorer classes are seeing a larger gap to climb to be financially stable. I have recently come back from aussie where I lost everything and am still in debt (due to certain scumbag con artist family members) now without any major form of qualification and only years and years of experience I don't see any jobs around that can put me in a position to be financially stable. My only real chance is to support my partner for 3 years while she does nursing and then she supports me while I study. now 6 years of struggle just to own a house..... I'd rather just get stoned and enjoy what little I have, but I'm too much of a realist and will be doing both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 ahh.. nice stereotype... how about being able to restrict cannabis sale to over 18s, having it available for sale from dispensaries with strict rules and fines for those that break them Wasn't a serious stereotype, just slightly dumbfounded at your "I'm going to claim this outrageous statement as a fact until you can prove me wrong" attitude. If you're going to restrict cannabis sales to over-18's then that somewhat nullifies your statement about there being less problems if young people smoked pot instead of drinking booze. I'm not some uninformed out-of-touch amish forming an opinion based by what I've read in the newspaper. One of the smartest people I've ever met was an american guy in his mid-20s who was over here studying metaphysics who had smoked regularly since about age 18. On the flip side, I've worked with people who have smoked heavily from a young age and basically watched them turn into cabbages, I guess it effects people differently. I will watch the video, but there are still many issues regarding the legalisation of it that do not, in my mind, add up. -would it actually remove the black-market if it was sold and taxed at a rate that is representative of the harm it does (as tobacco and alcohol are)? -how would you avoid a repeat of the "binge culture" we see with alcohol? -how would you avoid a repeat of the problems we have with under-age drinking despite having age limits in place? -given the difficulties in proving the potential harm caused by long term effects (causation vs correlation) how will you inform and educate the public on potential harms? -how would you ensure the safety of people in industries like mining, construction, anything involving heavy machinery etc, given the effects of cannabis aren't always as obvious as alcohol? Daily drug tests? Increased random drug tests? Who pays for all that? I certainly wouldn't want to be working with guys potentially under the influence in my job... etcetera etcetera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livebearer_breeder Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 As to wether it is legal/illegal, healthy or unhealthy doesn't get around the point as to why life is so bad that people have to take mind bending drugs to enjoy themselves and then think it is normal to be intoxicated or stoned to a greater or lesser extent. Escapism is a very real issue but it effects 100% of us at some point or another to varying degrees. We evolved to a point where higher brain function allowed us to comprehend complex ideas and emotions, fact is, some people are ill equipped to deal with the way they feel at times. This is a terrestrial issue that was born through time and thousands of years of human development and dependents on substance. You are what you eat and it effects the next generation. Its really not an argument for the progressiveness of society through the prohibition of Prohibition and more of a complex scientific study that we are still not entirely sure on. If we look at what you've asked, we need to then ask, well, why is life "so bad"? that seems to be the clincher, why would people even want to take mind altering drugs? and when people keep throwing around this phrase "mind altering", what are we even saying? Its a very curious expression. The effect animals have on the human physiology in the private home has the potential to be "mind altering", the hormones in the unnatural foods we eat can be "mind altering". The by-products of cladding systems in your homes have the potential to be "mind altering", a bite from a certain bug, or exposure to an allergenic can be "mind altering". even the sun and moon have the ability to affect your mind. Really, however you look at it, we are products of our environments, so to separate one thing from another simply because we are still on the ancient understandings and laws of things, doesn't necessarily make a strong argument. So why take drugs? simple answer, they make you feel good. And why would they do that? because we are sensory receptive beings. What happens when we overload these sensors, or under load them - (my generations word) Buzzy-ness! Thats pretty much match and point here. Doesn't make it good, but also not necessarily bad, for what is reality, but the chance to consciously observe through this thing called light, we like to call this "physics". The argument is simply that, in order to move toward a Utopian idealistic existence, which is not an unrealistic hope of most of the world, we need to make steps and one of the biggest is to end prohibition and start looking at controlled educated regulated safer substance use across the board, because we cant stop it, but we can do our best to fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livebearer_breeder Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 -would it actually remove the black-market if it was sold and taxed at a rate that is representative of the harm it does (as tobacco and alcohol are)? -how would you avoid a repeat of the "binge culture" we see with alcohol? -how would you avoid a repeat of the problems we have with under-age drinking despite having age limits in place? -given the difficulties in proving the potential harm caused by long term effects (causation vs correlation) how will you inform and educate the public on potential harms? -how would you ensure the safety of people in industries like mining, construction, anything involving heavy machinery etc, given the effects of cannabis aren't always as obvious as alcohol? Daily drug tests? Increased random drug tests? Who pays for all that? I certainly wouldn't want to be working with guys potentially under the influence in my job... Most of this stuff is actually relatively simple to work out. *Yes *"binge" on weed and you fall a sleep ~ binge on alcohol and you smash your wife and children * Under-age drinking and cigarette smoking is always going to be bigger problem than under-age pot smoking. I always loved alcohol as a younger man, cigarettes were easy and made me feel cool, my first experience with pot was not fun or enjoyable as the majority will also say. *The public has been educated on the "harms" since the 30's, now we are learning about all the good that THC and CBD can do for disease and human physiology, so how about instead of us being pessimists which never helps anyone, we start going "wow here is a responsible way to use something", "but how do we do that johnny", "well through the miracle of MEDICAL SCIENCE of course". *How are we ensuring there safety now? is your argument that just because something becomes legal and regulated suddenly we have this society that breaks down into this zombie style POT infection that kills us all cause everyone turns up to work stoned?! it just sounds ridiculous. Have some more faith in humanity, we don't all just want to get baked, there is just a chance for better things and i want that chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 *"binge" on weed and you fall a sleep ~ binge on alcohol and you smash your wife and children Nice sterotype, how about binge on alcohol and you smash your husband and dog. Men are not the only colperates when it comes to binge drinking or spousal abuse for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamH Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Nice sterotype, how about binge on alcohol and you smash your husband and dog. Men are not the only colperates when it comes to binge drinking or spousal abuse for that matter. You completely missed the point there Cam. The point L_B was making that one substance will make you violent, the other will not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 You completely missed the point there Cam. The point L_B was making that one substance will make you violent, the other will not. I got the point, I was mearly stateing that binge drinking and domestic violence is not just a male problem. and it is sterotypes like this and others that get expressed that stops this country from growing and possibly will stop any chance of cannibis from moving from illegal to legal. and Alcohol will not make you violent any more then dope will make you not violent. I have never been violent while on the razz, if you are a violent natured person or have violent tendences you are more likely to become this way while drinking. you can not blame the booze, the justice system doesnt allow it, so why should the public? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamH Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 and Alcohol will not make you violent any more then dope will make you not violent. if you are a violent natured person or have violent tendences you are more likely to become this way while drinking. So you're saying it won't make you more violent but it will make you more violent :-? The fact of the matter is that alcohol impairs judgement in a nasty way promoting violence and general bad behaviour. Whereas cannabis impairs judgement in a nonviolent and uncoordinated way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 So you're saying it won't make you more violent but it will make you more violent :-? The fact of the matter is that alcohol impairs judgement in a nasty way promoting violence and general bad behaviour. Whereas cannabis impairs judgement in a nonviolent and uncoordinated way. If you are violent by nature you will be violent in any state of mind. Alcohol does not promote violence. i do agree it impairs judgement but as does weed.if you want to hit someone when stoned you will. both make you uncoordinated hence why you are not legally allowed to drive when your blood alcohol level is above a set limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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