livingart Posted August 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 what sort of shovel? wide mouth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplecatfish Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 :lol: This has been funny to read :lol: Yep I've got a degree and yep I did genetics to a stage three level and yep I wrote an essay on geographic species, physiological species, and genetic species. So I find this arguement highly entertaining, and I feel like the little kid in the Emperor Wears No Clothes who can't help but point out that one persons arguement makes him look naked. :lol: :lol: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted August 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Try a left handed shovel and people may see the problem from another angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted August 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 very good alan, is there another angle to see this from? or is life a polyhedron? when you have been doing something for awhile you can amass a wealth of experience and knowledge on the matter also you meet or become involved with a lot of people along the way, and like it or not you can be regarded as an "expert" in the field you are in be it hobby, business or just life unfortunately some people think that what you say is a fact and believe it blindly a good example of this is "but the pet shop told me that" many believe that if you work in a pet shop you must be knowledgeable and know what you are talking about i feel we have an obligation to tell the truth or at least let people know it is only our opinion or experience insert disclaimer about this post being just my opinion based on my experience Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Pity we can't identify as easily "motivation" and put a disclaimer on that. Money does make the world go around. "Business 101-Point of difference", and when this difference has little chance of being validated then- " Business 102-Ethics" seems to be optional. It so happens only one breeder/seller who has economics as key element to their decision making has been discussed here. If that were all. There's a certain importer of plecs who certainly was smoking behind the gym during the "102" lesssons. From there - "Business 103-service' is a matter of discussion that ultimately the customer has the final say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Very interesting topic, though it seems to have turned into a major pointed tangent. Seriously, Phill, read your posts before you hit 'send'. I really can't understand half of what you write due to spelling mistakes, incomplete sentences and missing words. It is interesting stuff, but I can't make sense of it. Back to the ORIGINAL TOPIC: 1: We accept that hybrids sold as a species they are not is a problem. 1A: So what actual SOLUTIONS are there to this? Are there any? 2: By 'true-to-type' are you really meaning SPECIES or PHENOTYPE (a particular expression of the genes) You could line-breed people to have particular phenotypes and breed true-to-type (one group with brown hair and brown eyes, another with blonde hair and blue eyes etc) but it doesn't make them a species. There may be some natural variations in genotype/phenotype that you are breeding out by selecting certain traits as being wild type, which results in the line not actually being wild type (which has variation), but a strain with the same genotype. Then again, because the breeding populations are so small, this kind of allele frequency shift would happen anyway... I guess that is another difficulty with using captive (for many generations) breeding populations to supplement a threatened wild population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 so what's with the rotikels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 David R is the person to ask on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsonMassif Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 so what's with the rotikels? They are fish with the consciousness' of poor rottweilers who had their bodies dissected in horrible alien probing experiments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 yes. but crossing a gold with a rotikel will produce gold X rotikel hybrids, and not pure rotikels. doesn't matter if they look like rotikels (which apparently they don't as they get older). the gene coding for colours in this case seems to co-express; i.e. both colours are coded for and phenotypically expressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted August 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 shows the yellow isn't recessive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 David R is the person to ask on that one. It will be interesting to see how they turn out, I saw Henwards ones yesterday and they aren't showing any red yet, except for in the anal fin. They are still small though. The 5 juvi's I have (from an unknown source I will add, dropped off at HFF Albany as "severums", so there possibly someone with a breeding pair) are colouring up nicely, although they're ~8-10cm so I'm not going to count my chickens... I'm not going to claim the moral high ground with regards to this topic. Some might say its unethical to sell hybrids using an internet picture of an exceptionally coloured male (especially when 90% of pure rotkeils won't have that much colour), but others would not. Some would deplore the idea of doing such a cross and clogging the market with mutts, others would say let the market speak for itself. I have my opinions, Phil has his, and I'll leave it at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 David has, by all accounts has a very promising career ahead in Politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted August 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 David has, by all accounts has a very promising career ahead in Politics. Is that an insult or complement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldogod Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 I dont breed fish but have been involved in dog breeding and you dont have a picture of a pure bred bulldog and then say oh its crossed with a Chihuahua but the Chihuahua is not dominent in breeding. At the least it is misleading and even moreso before I posted a protest in questions. Peolpe can have years and years of experiance in doing something, doest mean its right when people stop learning cause they think they know it all.lol, does that make sense, does to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Bingo! I should have googled Winston Churchill earlier. bulldog- i believe you have in one post hit the nail on the head, or in doggy talk You have " filled the collars" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted August 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 or muzzled the pitbull Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Bugger! and I thought mine was good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr pleco Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 if you want my thoughts on this subject, heres an enlightening post about a similar problem ,How many forum members does it take to change a lightbulb? 1 to change the light bulb and 1 to post that the light bulb has been changed 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs 53 to flame the spell checkers 41 to correct spelling/grammar flames 6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" ... another 6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive 2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp" 15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "light bulb" is perfectly correct 156 to email the participant's ISPs complaining that they are in violation of their "acceptable use policy" 109 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a lightbulb forum 203 to demand that cross posting to hardware forum, off-topic forum, and lightbulb forum about changing light bulbs be stopped 111 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty 27 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs 14 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's 3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group 33 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too" 12 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy 19 to quote the "Me too's" to say "Me three" 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ 44 to ask what is a "FAQ" 4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?" 143 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs" 1 new forum member to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamH Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 :lol: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 if you want my thoughts on this subject, heres an enlightening post about a similar problem ,How many forum members does it take to change a lightbulb? 1 to change the light bulb and 1 to post that the light bulb has been changed 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs 53 to flame the spell checkers 41 to correct spelling/grammar flames 6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" ... another 6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive 2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp" 15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "light bulb" is perfectly correct 156 to email the participant's ISPs complaining that they are in violation of their "acceptable use policy" 109 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a lightbulb forum 203 to demand that cross posting to hardware forum, off-topic forum, and lightbulb forum about changing light bulbs be stopped 111 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty 27 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs 14 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's 3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group 33 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too" 12 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy 19 to quote the "Me too's" to say "Me three" 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ 44 to ask what is a "FAQ" 4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?" 143 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs" 1 new forum member to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again And I bet in the end the damn light bulb didn't even get changed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted August 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 no the light bulb blew while they were all discussing it and they are all still in the dark most excellent post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplecatfish Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 Mr Pleco :lol: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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