RnB

can see your point, but feel education and guidence more important then the price of the fish or the price of your skimmer.... that said i feel there is an incredible ammount of junk sold simply because its in a price range that the LFS can move to the newbie punter, and still make a decent margin.... an expensive fish will be killed just as easy by incorrect use of expensive equipment as will the same fish sold for less...... time and time again the experts on reefcentral say nothing beats patience sp? and the advice of other experienced hobbists..... the fact that the advice is often available for free, but the newbie is not directed to it is one of the issues...... WHY - BECAUSE THERE IS NO SINGLE VOICE OF US HOBBIESTS THAT THE NEWBIE CAN COME ALONG TO AND LEARN FROM!!!!! how did i learn about this stuff... like many of us, read books, stumbled across you reef, then meet steve etc etc, local shops ... why do i hav the views i do, not because i am anti capitalist and hate anyone trying to make a profit.... rather i truely feel that much of the advice i was given over the last 2-3 years was from people who had a financial interest in the advise they where imparting on me... in fact i have rarely been given any advice that involved an item or style or process not "ON SALE" right now..... fair call reef you have steered me away from a few things that i would have happily purchased and would probably have killed...... that has NEVER happened to me in a shop.... if 50-90% of fish die this quickly... how many of you out there have ever had a shop refuse to sell you something? if the answer is never. I would ask yourself to think very carefully about the nature of the advice these retail shops dispense...... Educated newbies will purchase good kit from LFS, make ssmart choices and be LONG TERM repeat buyers.... this will be good for LFS, good for hobby and bloody marvelous for the fish! OK enough selfless promotion of NZMAS

wow ... nice recurring revenue model though...... I would say for many, copperbands etc, its more like 95% within one year.....

so where do all the little nemo fish go? how many fish do you guys have out there ? I suspect to an early grave.....

as long as maf give me da go ahead.. I will photo doc everything! would love to contribute through both NZMAS and FNZAS! P

REEF you have a great feel for the market take a stab... how many reef tanks in NZ, and how many fish only steve - info from you be good too???? I am sure our hobby has a feel for how many... I will take a stab and say about 300 fish only tanks and about 150 reef tanks.....

My post was about a single voice.. a club, a community not just new species.... At the moment I see serveral warring importers and a fragmented hobby with little natioanl focus apart from bitching at each other on this board.... yes commercial interests are at stake, get over it... Importers bitch at each other Hobbiests bitch at LFS LFS keep heads low (how can they win by bitching.. good strategy) Everyones bitching at MAF It has been my experience on other forums (non fish ones) that once people meet face to face and are willing to listern to each other in there physical presense that a true community forms, and the flow on is a civil online community..... I'm sorry but "this is as good as it gets......." is not good enough for me.... anyway I am sick of arguing about it, I have imported DVD's financed the incorporation of a society, rented venues and I just hope all you warring fractions can see that a hobbiest lead club might just make things better for EVERYONE...... Perhaps if the importers/LFS could stand sitting in front of each other they could respond to MAF with a common voice..... once again perhaps the importers need to first look at themselves, and ask how did we get to this point.... Reef - everyone appreciates the work you have done to increase species import schedule etc... but why did you have to do it alone... why not as part of a wider community who could share the costs and benefits.... Well we as hobbiests do share common nonfinancial interest, and I hope this is an opportunity to all come together and drag in all the people who hate these boards and the bitchiness... in fact I hope that in time 90% of the people out there who never post here turn up and contribute in a civalised club.... Ask yourself how many reef tanks are in NZ and how many people contribute here!

I think the Ehiem would make a great return pump, I would want "VARIABLE" flow in the tank if possible..... maybe a ehiem as a closed loop feeding behind rock areas, but I would really try and get veriable flow..... maybe wavemaker.. (get softstart technology) mayber pumps on timers.... (cheap option but make sure u have pumps that will startby themselves!) STREAMS expensive but def the BEST result available (Talk to Jetski he just cut a great deal on Streams for me!) and maybe overkill for a 4ft tank but hey u going to upgrade right or buy a SEIO M1100's I have a brand new one you can have for $125 + postage....

MAF do have ability to fine, but there is a very defined process they have to go through and the offence almost has to be repeated before they have a shot at prosecution, and even then it would be cheaper and more effective just to pull that importers license....... This is a warning letter..... which in some ways shows that its considered a low level offence... trust me if MAF thought a bio security breach could REALLY harm the NZ economy they would be all over the offender... Lets all wake up to the fact that things could get worse..... if the impoters do not heed the warning a bigger stick will be used IMPORTERS stick to the rules..... Hobbiests, stop trying to get importers to sneak things in! Reef, I know it will be hard and maybe cost money, but change is a given in this world.... does anyone else agree that we as a hobby need a co-ordinated voice, nationwide, that everyone can participate in?

you are talking policy vs enforcement......... until the schedule is changed the importers are breaking the law importing things not on it, I do understand that some things hitchhike in.... however there has also been some blatant ordering / importing of things not allowed.... The buck stops at the importer.. sorry guys but this MAF issue has been caused by an importer breaking the law to achieve a profit..... and I know its not just one person......!!!!! we as a hobby need to push for the schedule to be changed if we feel it needs to be.... Individually we have no voice, which is why I and others have been forming an incorperated society so we have a formal avenue to meet and learn more about our hobby and how it works.... NZMAS (New Zealand Marine Aquarium Society) can actively lobby MAF for changes to be made... but its got to be logical and thought out... whining on about how unfair the rules are, without reading and understanding the research done by Niwa and others on the potential threat from ornamental imports is just going to see MAF treat us like a bunch of whining hobbists.... We all understand that there is no love lost between serveral people who import, but for once guys this may be a time where you have to make a stand as one voice for anything to change.... MAF is a government organisation, you must meet them and submit requests in a co-ordinated manner otherwise they will pay no attention to any of us! I will dig up some links I found on the research done so far on ornamentals and the threat to the NZ environment and economy... if we are to press for change we must understand why MAF has the opionions/position that they hold now! I also feel that it will be very hard for MAF to move anything in our favour at the moment, why would they trust the importers to enforce the new policy when there has been such blatant disregard for the old! Don't kid yourselves here.... It is clear where the issues lie.

Understand that..... that is a great thread, I suggest everyone on here reads it from page 11 on....

now i can see why, the process of quickly removing the nutrients might actually suck the required trace elements right out of the exposed coral tissue........ as bomber says....

Almost all the DVD's i have with people keeping tanks 20years plus...... few if any use the "Suppliments" Layton thanks for this link, so far its been very interesting/educational reading... but should not the dosing of some Zeo prioducts be adjusted according to the results of your tests? thus the accuracy and repeatability of the test kit is the determining factor in the succesful dosing... on the other hand, think of all the people out there who wash there hair with product based on the "science bit" ..... mind u i would probably take any personal advice from miss aniston i could get, now that brad has moved on....

which is why zeo users go to such great lengths to add no phos/organics to there tanks...... RO/DI all the way..... gotta be carefull got warned once about stressing how important good testing is and how most test kits are NOT UP to the resolution you would need to have if you where dosing zeo based on the results... Hey Zeo? u around?"

thats a great thread....... I love the iron-phosphate binding making it easier to skim out, I have been convinced that this type of thing has been at work, no idea about metal eating bacs tho.....

It is pointless arguing about the hitch hikers if maf visit reef keeps and see large not allowed animals and it then transpires they came though "official" q sites....... in fact, understand, even the illegal live rock import was by an "approved q site". so the importers should step back and take a good look at themselves... YOU ARE THE ONLY SOURCE OF THESE ANIMALS / ROCK. we as hobbiests should not be cross at MAF for enforcing the law rather ask your importer what the h*ll they thought they where doing importing this stuff!!!!! Its your choice... dont get greedy and stuff it up for us hobbists.....

all I can say is WOW !!!!! not for dailup tho....

how would an importer go about proving the rock is free of hitch hikers....

Seawater has only 7-8 parts per million oxygen.... the complex life in it will die increadibly quickly without oxygen exchange happening.. in fact so will you tank if all your pumps go off! 5 hours it will look real ugly as the oxygen levels plummet... am not sure but the idea of keeping it 6-8 weeks implies to me that you are almost letting it cycle.. ie, organics dier off and break down before you use em, the walls of the container would provide a good medium for the bacteria to live on.... I almost always use it within 1 hour... last night I added in a refugia of 125L and did another 125L of main water change.... Some people who keep tanks in the florida quays have semi open systems with about 10% exchange per day... now thats a great way to export nutrients and keep trace elements in place!

I am so impressed with the width of Pies tank that my next tank will be !m deep.... it just looks awesome....

Well I had a little fire last night so.... went over to Radium Lighting this lunch time to buy some bits..... The plan is to build two 400W metal halide reflectors that will be very simmilar to the Diamond reflecters that Sanjay recently tested... for those who have never seen them they look like this They have a diamond panel in them... the idea being that they spread the light out over a much bigger footprint then a traditional piece of bent aluminium.... The aluminium is quite cheap comming in at $56 for a sheet, its 0.5mm thick so needs support at all the joins, I will be using small "strips" of tin so I can easily cut/bend these strips, and rivets to hold it all together... I will post piccies of the ballast shortly.......

cookie - u have a link to that article?

you want to buy one of your old tanks back?

several people say ebay is great.... def good for dremel bits...

go diving thermoclines are normal... a couple of degrees drop does not harm IMHO

AW you have a new tank yet?