GrahamC Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 And here's my take. Have you got the old filter material into your filter yet? If so that will help reduce the number of water changes you need to do. You have 14 fish in a 130L tank, with very high ammonia levels. You haven't told us the nitrite or nitrate levels but are presuming that nitrite levels are also high. You last said your combined ammonia/ammonium level were off the chart. or at 8ppm, so that even 90% water changes would still leave you at toxic levels of about 1ppm. So, just waiting and doing small water changes is not an option. You have to keep using Prime to neutralise the ammonia and nitrites. This stuff is for emergency use until you can get the levels down by water dilution. Some people suggest daily 30% water change in this situation. When I hit a similar situation shortly after starting to keep fish, and didn't have access to prime, I did 50% twice daily water changes until I got the ammonia down to 0, and my fish survived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheepsnana Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Just my 2c worth, but I cycled a 90L tank using Aquarium Complete from Animal Antics (LFS) and 10 neon tetra's. It's pretty much live bacteria in a bottle, just like transferring media from a pre-cycled tank. And it only cost $40. It was an instant cycle in a brand new tank. No ammonia spike, and no nitrite spike, water was tested every day for the first 10 days, and then weekly afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 I was also sold nitrifying bacteria in a bottle with my first tank from the LFS, and it didn't cycle my tank for me even though it was called "Cycle"! So, your mileage may vary. The issue is that the bacteria you need are aerobic, and need to be alive when you use them. But how long can they survive in an airtight bottle on the shelf of a LFS having been imported from where ever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricketman Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 And here's my take. Have you got the old filter material into your filter yet? If so that will help reduce the number of water changes you need to do. No, it won't, you still need to do the same water changes until the tank becomes stable. Bacterial action from introduced media is not instant, there is a period after moving the bacterium that they go into dormant state after being disturbed. also, you will still need water changes to take out the NO3 that is becoming available in the tank to algae. This can be done with established plant life and lighting, but that is further down the track from where the tank is at the moment, so, good old water changes are still the most efficient until you get to that stage. You have 14 fish in a 130L tank, with very high ammonia levels. You haven't told us the nitrite or nitrate levels but are presuming that nitrite levels are also high. You last said your combined ammonia/ammonium level were off the chart. or at 8ppm, so that even 90% water changes would still leave you at toxic levels of about 1ppm. 1st, that reading was over 2 weeks ago now, many water changes have passed since. In your example above you show only one large change (quick calculation shows [NH3/4+] = 0.8ppm post 90% change, a relatively safe level), where the reality is that many successive changes will have a greater over-all effect on the [NH3/4+]. Reducing it slowly is better anyway, you don't want to remove 100%of the NH3/4+, otherwise your not going to ever develop the nitrobacter colonies, are ya? 2nd, a portion of that test reading is going to be bound in the ammonium state (dependant on PH and temperature), and can be ignored as a danger to the fish. Also, any chemical action from the various potions may or may not have an effect on this balance, dependant on what brand and/or whether you believe the "scientific evidence" from "testing" funded by the company trying to sell the product... (see the conflict of interest?) I'll add here that I haven't gone looking for independent research, 'cos I really have better things to do, like date women, and stop well-meaning, yet misguided, advice from people that have only just started out in the scene and think they know everything 'cos google told 'em so, from draining peoples pockets on pointless additives and chemicals that they don't need. So, just waiting and doing small water changes is not an option. You have to keep using Prime to neutralise the ammonia and nitrites. This stuff is for emergency use until you can get the levels down by water dilution. No, He doesn't HAVE TO do anything... you can make a suggestion only, not a command... Daily water changes will get the job done just fine... I have never used anything but dechlorinator and water changes in over 15 years of fish keeping, to cycle my tanks... I am of the opinion that these potions are a waste of money when a perfectly simple solution exists already... and is 100% effective at directly removing everything... (this is contrary to tropical marine, where there are a number of additives/ levels that should be monitored for best results and to keep certain organisms) Some people suggest daily 30% water change in this situation. When I hit a similar situation shortly after starting to keep fish, and didn't have access to prime, I did 50% twice daily water changes until I got the ammonia down to 0, and my fish survived. So, Prime is not the be all and end all holy grail of fish keeping after all, and water changes are just as beneficial, if not more so. Glad we agree. :thup: I was also sold nitrifying bacteria in a bottle with my first tank from the LFS, and it didn't cycle my tank for me even though it was called "Cycle"! So, your mileage may vary. The issue is that the bacteria you need are aerobic, and need to be alive when you use them. But how long can they survive in an airtight bottle on the shelf of a LFS having been imported from where ever? Cycle your tank for you? It's like saying "I'm going to give you this pill and you'll drop 20kg overnight!". Would you believe it? course not (I'd hope)... you expect too much from your magic potion... It just doesn't work that way... As far as bottles of bacteria on the shelf - They go into a dormant state, and while there are definitely losses in viable bacteria over time, the concentration that they are in, means that these losses are minor compared to the over-all population. again, it takes an amount of time for the dormant bacteria to "wake-up" and start dealing to the Nitrogenous waste. Having said all that, I still would rather go for water changes and borrowed media... :thup: Potions that claim to do all sorts of magical things to ammonia and/or nitrites are for lazy people that can't be stuffed to do water changes in my opinion. There, I said it... :digH: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 No, it won't, you still need to do the same water changes until the tank becomes stable. Bacterial action from introduced media is not instant, there is a period after moving the bacterium that they go into dormant state after being disturbed. also, you will still need water changes to take out the NO3 that is becoming available in the tank to algae. Non cycled tank means more water changes then tank with newly acquired media hosting billions of bacteria. Now, did I say it would work instantly? And did I say exactly when these water changes were to take place? 1st, that reading was over 2 weeks ago now Nope, another test was reported 28th Feb, or 4 days ago. Reading was 8ppm+ ie. indicating the true level might be higher. , many water changes have passed since. In your example above you show only one large change (quick calculation shows [NH3/4+] = 0.8ppm post 90% change, a relatively safe level), where the reality is that many successive changes will have a greater over-all effect on the [NH3/4+]. As above .... Reducing it slowly is better anyway, you don't want to remove 100%of the NH3/4+, otherwise your not going to ever develop the nitrobacter colonies, are ya? Why would you want to do that? Cultivate the bacteria and lose the fish. And the tank has a constant source of new ammonia, namely the 14 ( we hope ) fish. 2nd, a portion of that test reading is going to be bound in the ammonium state (dependant on PH and temperature), and can be ignored as a danger to the fish. Also, any chemical action from the various potions may or may not have an effect on this balance, dependant on what brand and/or whether you believe the "scientific evidence" from "testing" funded by the company trying to sell the product... (see the conflict of interest?) Yes, we have already covered this point. I'll add here that I haven't gone looking for independent research, 'cos I really have better things to do, like date women, and stop well-meaning, yet misguided, advice from people that have only just started out in the scene and think they know everything 'cos google told 'em so, from draining peoples pockets on pointless additives and chemicals that they don't need. The lack of independent research says it all. No, He doesn't HAVE TO do anything... you can make a suggestion only, not a command... Did you not see my statement that this was my OPINION only?? Daily water changes will get the job done just fine... I have never used anything but dechlorinator and water changes in over 15 years of fish keeping, to cycle my tanks... And how often did you have to deal with the OP's situation?? I am of the opinion that these potions are a waste of money when a perfectly simple solution exists already... and is 100% effective at directly removing everything... (this is contrary to tropical marine, where there are a number of additives/ levels that should be monitored for best results and to keep certain organisms) So, Prime is not the be all and end all holy grail of fish keeping after all, and water changes are just as beneficial, if not more so. Glad we agree. :thup: Actually I'd be tempted to do a 100% water change in this situation and just start again with the old media. Cycle your tank for you? It's like saying "I'm going to give you this pill and you'll drop 20kg overnight!". Would you believe it? course not (I'd hope)... you expect too much from your magic potion... Did you read the post from the poster who said his $40 bacterial solution worked fine for him? It just doesn't work that way... As far as bottles of bacteria on the shelf - They go into a dormant state, and while there are definitely losses in viable bacteria over time, the concentration that they are in, means that these losses are minor compared to the over-all population. again, it takes an amount of time for the dormant bacteria to "wake-up" and start dealing to the Nitrogenous waste. Having said all that, I still would rather go for water changes and borrowed media... :thup: Potions that claim to do all sorts of magical things to ammonia and/or nitrites are for lazy people that can't be stuffed to do water changes in my opinion. There, I said it... :digH: Looks like chemistry to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trinox Posted March 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 heres a few pics of my fish and my latest Ammonia test that i just did : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueether Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Keep up the [daily] water changes (I think this is the one thing that every one agrees on :roll: ) to dilute the ammonia to a safe level, use prime etc to remove the chlorine and have patience, it will take time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 What's the pH and temperature? A lower pH will lower the amount of toxic free ammonia out of the total ammonia being measured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricketman Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Non cycled tank means more water changes then tank with newly acquired media hosting billions of bacteria. Now, did I say it would work instantly? And did I say exactly when these water changes were to take place? No, you said it would reduce the need for W/C's , which it won't, even if it did work almost instantly, still need to get rid of NO3 by direct export, seeing as there aren't established flora. and you have to account for the Lag between bacterial introduction and when those bacteria actually start to work, shown by the presence of NO2, which also is toxic and needs to be removed... and there will also be another Lag phase as the next species of nitrobacter start to populate... So.... KEEP UP THE WATER CHANGES... Nope, another test was reported 28th Feb, or 4 days ago. Reading was 8ppm+ ie. indicating the true level might be higher. True that, My apologies, I got my dates wrong. As above .... Why would you want to do that? Cultivate the bacteria and lose the fish. And the tank has a constant source of new ammonia, namely the 14 ( we hope ) fish. You obviously didn't read the bold properly... and yes, there is going to be more ammonia constantly supplied, but you'd rather have a constant presence to allow the bacteria to colonise ASAP, and in decent number, rather than have 0 NH3 one day and have it creep up to a level where it takes time for the bacteria to populate to a effective level again. The Lag is too great for this, and will result in an ammonia spike anyway...daily W/C's are still the best. Yes, we have already covered this point. The lack of independent research says it all. Where's yours then?? Did you not see my statement that this was my OPINION only?? Sorry, where I come from "You HAVE TO" is a direct instruction, not opinion, maybe thats where I got the idea from... And how often did you have to deal with the OP's situation?? Myself? None, because I have always been constant with my W/C's. I have, however, helped many people in the OP's situation over the years, and many other issues I have faced personally and amongst the wider fish keeping community. Actually I'd be tempted to do a 100% water change in this situation and just start again with the old media. And shock the fish? 50-60% change is the max that I'd ever look at doing in one W/C... Did you read the post from the poster who said his $40 bacterial solution worked fine for him? not saying that it doesn't work for some people in thier particular application, I am saying that I wouldn't bother when it is much simpler, and cheaper to do damn W/C's... I believe you proved my point for me by believing that a off-the-shelf product would cycle your tank for you... how many other people do you think this happens to??? Looks like chemistry to me. Looks like biology to me... bio-chemistry even! :thup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstar99 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 What's the pH and temperature? A lower pH will lower the amount of toxic free ammonia out of the total ammonia being measured. Its a fine line really. Low Ph will lower the toxicity of the ammonia but will also stall/ slow the cycle. Keep up the water changes. Do two a day if you have time but take care not to knock your substrate around too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheepsnana Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Wow, you're brave using bristlenose, they really don't like new tanks. How are the fish doing? any signs of stress? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrienne Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 having refused to trawl the last posts - if your ammonia is 8ppm then your pH needs to be really low or your bristle nose will be in trouble. Keep up water changes about 25% daily and add an airline if you have one to add a bit more oxygen to the water. If you are using ammolock you will still get the reading. TBH you are better to use less additives and water change more often to allow time for the tank to mature naturally. Messing around for quick result may only result in tears Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 not saying that it doesn't work for some people in thier particular application, I am saying that I wouldn't bother when it is much simpler, and cheaper to do damn W/C's... I believe you proved my point for me by believing that a off-the-shelf product would cycle your tank for you... how many other people do you think this happens to??? no idea of what your point is, and what you mistakenly think I believe. And guess what ... when you buy a fish and take it home, you do a 100% water change. In this particular tank which has been undergoing significant water changes daily, the chemistry is likely to be similar to the fresh dechlorinated water that is being used for the changes, except for the ammonia, and its metabolic products. So, moving these poor fish from a tank with 8ppm+ of ammonia to a new tank with 0 ppm, and similar pH, temperature etc is going to be beneficial. What shock are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 There is no point in having domestics over this. We have a person wanting to cycle a tank. There is some very good info on the front page about cycling written by Jennifer and published in the December 2011 AW. Some people do not seem able to accept that there is more than one way to cycle an aquarium and people can choose how they do that. The aim is the same in each case--to establish a balance between the bacteria and the waste feeding them so that the toxic elements in the nitrogen cycle are kept under control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zev Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 I have locked this thread if you wish to further discuss tank cycling, please do so in the thread created for this purpose in the freshwater section. http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=57584 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts