Optimising plant growth and minimising algae

[JazzyJeff]

answers to further questions

Photoperiod? 11 hours on a timer

Filtration? Standard Blue Planet filtration - I have remved the carbon so, noodles, and white wool. I do have a u/v filter but don't have it going full time

How much excel are you dosing? I have it but don't use in this tank

I see you are adding Potassium but what about the other macros? I have it but don't use it

can get some of this if needed... http://www.seachem.com/Products/product ... Trace.html

Sounds like you have plenty of plants.... That's a good start - Yeah - have done the stem plant thing and it too much work. So have pulled out all the ambulia, cabomba, vallis and polysperma

[fordayzbro]

answers to further questions

Photoperiod? 11 hours on a timer

Filtration? Standard Blue Planet filtration - I have remved the carbon so, noodles, and white wool. I do have a u/v filter but don't have it going full time

How much excel are you dosing? I have it but don't use in this tank

I see you are adding Potassium but what about the other macros? I have it but don't use it

can get some of this if needed... http://www.seachem.com/Products/product ... Trace.html

Sounds like you have plenty of plants.... That's a good start - Yeah - have done the stem plant thing and it too much work. So have pulled out all the ambulia, cabomba, vallis and polysperma

Righto....

1/ Reduce photoperiod to 6-7 hours

2/ Start dosing excel daily (check the recommended dose, for your tank approx 1.7 mls per day)

3/ Check the Lph rating on your filter, might be worth adding an extra external or a small wavemaker to increase flow

4/ Dosing with Seachem products can be costly, should be dosing - excel, iron, trace, potassium, nitrate, phospherus or NPK. To save some coin you could try dosing with PMDD available on TM

5/ Try introducing CO2 via diy which is really basic but effective or CO2 injection

I keep a log of my daily dosing, Co2 injection rate, waterchanges, filter cleans and any signs of algae. Makes it easier to work out what could cause a sudden outbreak of algae.....

[Jennifer]

Agreed with all of what fordayzbro said above.

Just a couple other things:

1. To deal with the tiger lotus, just trim off the big leaves as they get too large. This will encourage it to stay compact and will help prevent it from taking over.

2. If the CO2 tabs are working, then you could consider sticking with them. I am not familiar with them or the dosage but just aim to keep things at a constant level. Alternatively, your size tank would do quite well with DIY CO2, it is actually quite easy and very effective and you don't really need to change it more than once a month or so.

3. Make sure the sword plants are placed in bright light areas and that they have root balls (they are heavy root feeders). The crypts will mostly be happy whether they are in the open or in the shade of the other big plants.

4. The fact that your tiger lotus is growing indicates that you have some nutrients there already - probably from the substrate/root balls and possibly also by the fairly decent stocking level (including the snails); this might be producing quite a bit of nitrate already. I would try testing the nitrates before adding any just so you have something to compare to when you dose.

5. Go ahead and use the Flourish comprehensive if you have it already. This will deal with the deficiencies. It is a great product, I prefer it to any other trace mix. You will just need to add the NPK on top of that but the size of your tank means that it shouldn't cost too much regardless of whether you get dry ferts or the premixed versions from the LFS.

6. Remember, to keep a low maintenance tank, keep the photoperiod reduced. Then you will also have a reduced need to dose so often with ferts.

[JazzyJeff]

Right o - thanks for that 4days & Jen.

Shorter photoperiod - will do. Am I reading that right - use excell AND DIY c02 or instead of?

I will start using the Flourish comprehensive twice weekly and look into NPK - I will also test for nitrates as a baseline and keep a log as 4days suggested. I may need to move the sword as I the lotus is half covering it and that may attirbute to the green algae.

I will let you know how things go - may even treat you to some pics!

Thanks

[Carlos & Siran]

Answer the following:

Dimensions & volume of tank

Lighting

Substrate

Plants

Fish stocking

Goals - What you want from the tank, amount of time you have to maintain it, approximate budget you want to spend on it

Okay so here goes, this is the first tank we are doing, other one can wait.

Dimensions & volume of tank: AquaOne R2-120, 123cm w x 46 cm d x 55 cm h (thats without the top) 285 L

Lighting:[3 x 30W T8, 2 white, 1 pink, on a timer 12 hours

Substrate: Dalton's aquamix and very very small stones

Plants: Amazon swords, cabomba, dwarf sag, hydrocotyle, stargrass, reineckii, xmas moss and dwarf hair grass (still in process of getting these plants, want to get them well established before we put fish in)[

Fish stocking:[ Looking at royal plec, blue tetras, otos, cories, ghost knife, whiptail and hatchets

Goals - What you want from the tank, amount of time you have to maintain it, approximate budget you want to spend on it: We want to have our tank looking like one of p44's, I guess it would be me (Siran) that would be doing water changes during the week while kiddies aren't at home etc, we have a fairly limited budget

That's all I can think of at the moment, Carlos would probably think of something else after.

 

 

[antwan]

I wonder if it would be possible to make some sort of calculator (like the one for safety factor) to work out the dosage rates for people. Could have options for high-tech/low-tech, water volume, etc etc. A lot of factors involved but could be really useful if someone has the time and mathematical/computer capabilities to do so?

[Jennifer]

We want to have our tank looking like one of p44's, I guess it would be me (Siran) that would be doing water changes during the week while kiddies aren't at home etc, we have a fairly limited budget

That's all I can think of at the moment, Carlos would probably think of something else after.

If you want a tank like P44, get some powerglo T5 tubes, CO2 and good filtration/circulation. If you don't have the money for Powerglos, then get as much light as you can. No doubt about it, this is a high tech tank.

Starting out can be a mission so it is important to go slow. As an example, I just posted some update photos of my tank for you here. Note how early on the total plant boimass was very low so they will not be using many nutrients at all. When it was first up, I only had half the lights on for 4 hours a day. Now I have eight powerglo tubes on for 8 hours a day and have to fertilise almost every day or I get green dust algae but they pearl all day long and the plant growth is impressive. The point is, do things gradually and you won't have a problem at all.

Start out just with Flourish comprehensive a couple of times a week and only have the lights on for a handful of hours a day. Then as the plants start to grow, increase the nutrients, including NPK and slowly increase the lighting period. if you see any sign of algae, decrease the light and add more ferts. Keep up the CO2 all the while (it can be relatively high since there won't be any fish in there for a while).

I wonder if it would be possible to make some sort of calculator (like the one for safety factor) to work out the dosage rates for people. Could have options for high-tech/low-tech, water volume, etc etc. A lot of factors involved but could be really useful if someone has the time and mathematical/computer capabilities to do so?

There are some overseas but there are so many variables that it hasn't worked well. Perhaps its a new project you should work on.

Shorter photoperiod - will do. Am I reading that right - use excell AND DIY c02 or instead of?

You can use Excel and CO2 but it isn't really necessary. I do find that Excel sometimes really helps the plants to get a foothold but later on I think CO2 gas (e.g. via DIY CO2) is much more effective and cheaper/easier in the long run.

[antwan]

There are some overseas but there are so many variables that it hasn't worked well. Perhaps its a new project you should work on.

I think my head would explode

[fordayzbro]

Recipes for minimal algae tanks ( don't take my word for it..... it's all over the net)

Hi Tech

- Intense light

- High filtration ( 10x or high flow around tank )

- Co2 injection ( crank it till your plants go nuts, slowly turn down then add livestock )

- Ferts.. Loads of macros, bit of micros then loads more macros

- Maintenence ( Weekly water changes )

- Plants, plants, plants and some plants

- minimal bio-load

- stable conditions

- time

Low tech

- Short photoperiod

- plants that suit low light conditions

- weekly fert dosing

- Liquid Co2 dosing

- minimal bio-load

- time

Not many people have algae free tanks but those who do... have found balance.

yeah.

[phoenix44]

We want to have our tank looking like one of p44's, I guess it would be me (Siran) that would be doing water changes during the week while kiddies aren't at home etc, we have a fairly limited budget

Thanks!

Key to my tanks are the lights. While you don't need to invest in plant pros ($120+ a tube!); powerglos are a necessity. Once you have the powerglos you can add more light at a later date, and be less picky about the colour and do 6500K or 10000K or similar.

Then comes ferts, CO2 and filtration. 4100LPH of filtration (each filter has a different use) on my 200 odd litre tank.

If I was up where you guys are, I would have happily come over and set up a tank or 10 :lol:

[FuglyDragon]

I paid to join Tom Barrs Website a couple of years back and got some pointers from the man himself...

Start up an excel spreadsheet (or a notebook) and record everything, what you added, when (time of day can be important) after a few weeks you get a great idea of whats going on in your tank.

CO2 CO2 CO2 CO2 most problems can be fixed by getting the CO2 right, get a decent reactor (I use an AquaMedic 1000) and a drop checker / ph measure. You dont need test kits with EI and most of them are useless anyway unless you have distilled water to calibrate them, spend the money you save on kits of ferts instead.

If time is an issue (it is for me) get a large sized pill dispenser that has a compartment for each day of the week, measure your ferts out on whatevfer day you do your water change and add them to the pill dispenser then you can dose the tank easilly each day. :bounce: (Best time saver ever, assumes you are using dry ferts not liquids)

Seachem Excel is magic water for planted tanks, it works, but TB recommended I dose much higher than Seachem do, he reckoned 50ml a day (yes a day !!) for a 250 litre tank, i bit the bullet and bought a 2 litre bottle for $200 odd man what a difference but its just too expensive (well for me) to keep up for an extended time, grew a fantastic glosso carpet though and 0 algae problems

as well as stocker (hydroponics.co.nz) I have also used http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/ (US site but reasonable prices)

No doubt in my mid that EI works if you are prepared to do a bit or research

[dbden]

Does any one have the product names of the chemicals required for the micro nutrient mix for pmdd. Have Jen's there for macro's have been using one off trade me and been working well but won't to add them seprate via a dosing pump macro & micro or should i do them all seprate. NPK,trace & iron. Prefer to only have two pumps going as there not cheap.

Thanks ! :roll:

[Fenriswolf]

So, every other day (or three times a week) do the following:

Macros (NPK)

Micros (trace minerals, etc.)

Iron

I'm feeling a bit dense here, but my main confusion is where do you get the iron and how much do you add? Do you use a liquid iron supplement like for human consumption? And when you say to add "micros" would this be the likes of PMDD or Flourish? And in the latter case does that include enough iron to cover micronutrients and iron in one?

Thanks!

[the-obstacle]

I'm just starting out with my big tank (see signature link) and I'm wanting to get the growth rocking along with all the plants in there to get them established. I'm thinking the co2 I'm adding isn't quite cutting it now that the 2 x 150w 6k MH lamps are on for 8 hours a day. I'm seeing a bit of growth in the last 2 days (first 2 days of MH light) but that had pretty much started with the single 3' powerglo and the MH light has just sped it up a little.

Should I add some excel for a few days to see what that does? I haven't had any pearling yet so I assume the co2 levels aren't quite right. I've been adding flourish comprehensive at the recommended doses for the last week (twice). So far no problems with algae except maybe a little bba that was a hangover from the last tank that survived the bleach bath before the new tank.

Dimensions & volume of tank - 1520x760x610 - 690L (about 100L is substrate/aquatic mix)

Lighting - T8 36" PowerGlo (12 hours a day) 2x 150W 6k metal halides (8 hours a day)

Substrate - Daltons Aquatic Mix & Daltons number 1 sand to seal, river rocks on top of sand.

Plants - Red Rose Sword, Osiris Sword, RoseXOzelot Sword, other unknown Sword, Green Lotus, Dwarf Sag, Crypts (not sure which flavour), cuttings of Ambulia, Hygrophila polysperma and Ludwigiia something (goes a nice red / green mix).

Fish stocking - 13 panda cory, 4 apisto agassizi, 2 GBR, 3 L140, 4 p. scallare - no snails as yet.

Ferts - currently using a nutrifin DIY co2 ladder. Dosing 2 times a week with flourish comp.

Goals - To have a tank that is full of growing and healthy plants. I don't mind doing the work to keep it that way it's just getting there in the first place that eludes me.

Problems - New tank so nothing yet just want to make sure I get the best out of my plants as soon as possible.

[antwan]

I'm feeling a bit dense here, but my main confusion is where do you get the iron and how much do you add? Do you use a liquid iron supplement like for human consumption? And when you say to add "micros" would this be the likes of PMDD or Flourish? And in the latter case does that include enough iron to cover micronutrients and iron in one?

Thanks!

Flourish does the whole range of fertilisers, but they are pricey; you can get N,P,K, and Iron all separately, and then trace (comprehensive) and excel. The link at the start of the thread is a good place to get the dry ferts, you can either add them to your tank dry, or mix into a solution. Iron chelate is what you get for the Iron macro.

Obstacle, give your plants a while (a week or two) to realise what's going on with all the new ferts/lights/CO2. After they're used to what's going on they will start going nuts and pearl every day. A drop checker is a handy tool to see what your CO2 levels are, and are cheap as chips off ebay. I wouldn't add the excel yet, you could maybe add it in a couple of weeks if you don't see any difference in growth rates

[the-obstacle]

Thanks heaps. I've added a second DIY co2 bottle with an old internal powerhead to spread it this afternoon. I'll get a drop checker in the next few days and see how we're going.

[the-obstacle]

Order these:

Potassium Nitrate (KN03)

Monopotassium Phosphate (KH2P04)

check

To make a liquid macro fert solution that will achieve close to the above target ranges, add:

264g KNO3

57.6g KH2PO4

2L ordinary water

I've done this but with 1L instead of 2 so I can add 1ml for ever 20 L of water (30mls for my 600 or so litres of actual water). Is it common for the mono potasium phosphate to not mix well? I'm getting a lot of it settling at the bottom of the container. I used cold water - maybe go warm next time?

So, every other day (or three times a week) do the following:

Macros (NPK)

Micros (trace minerals, etc.)

Iron

check

In addition, once a week do a 50% water change (this is essential for 'resetting' the system). After the water change, add a GH booster (e.g. magnesium sulfate/epsom salts) at a rate of 3/4 tsp per 200L of tank water. This provides essential magnesium and allows the plants to uptake nutrients.

I'm assuming by essential you mean essential? Can't get away with a smaller change?

Anyway, first dose today, will update in a week. Hoping the algae is gone by then and replaced with green and red plants.

[fordayzbro]

Here is a really good dosing calc

http://www.fluidsensoronline.com/calculators/estimative-index/

With that amount of light you would want to be injecting a lot of Co2 and keep on top of your fert dosing.

If you are having problems with algae, I would reduce the lighting

[the-obstacle]

Thanks, I'll see what happens over the next couple of days with regards to the algae but otherwise I'll drop the light by a few hours.

The calculator essentially says what Jen / kiwiplymouth posted about making up a solution. I haven't added the epsom salts but I'll sort that tonight.

[Jennifer]

Doing a water change helps to 're-set' the system so that it doesn't get out of balance. I actually turn on the autochanger on my big tank so that it gets a full turnover over the course of the day and it makes a big difference for my setup compared to just a 50% water change.

With a high-tech tank you may eventually find that you need to separate out the NPK so next time think about not mixing the KN03 and KH2P04 in the same bottle so that you can more easily increase one or the other as needed based on what you are seeing:

If you see:

green spot algae - add more phosphate

green dust/fuzz/hair - cut back light, add more nutrients, usually micros and/or nitrate (there are lots of different types so you need to experiment with whatever works)

black beard - add more CO2/increase the flow of CO2

staghorn - ensure even levels of CO2/check that there are no ammonia spikes

algae bloom (green water) - ensure even levels of CO2/check that there are no ammonia spikes, make sure photoperiods are not excessive, avoid direct sunlight

yellowing tips and edges of leaves - add more potassium

holes in the leaves - add more trace

old yellow leaves - add more nitrogen or magnesium

[the-obstacle]

Thanks heaps, it's really great to be able to get advice from the pros in this realm.

So a gradual water change over a day is ok? I've got the water changer all designed but haven't made it a priority as I've been doing 20% every couple of days. I'll set it up asap now though.

[Jennifer]

I, for one, am no expert! I have just made a LOT of mistakes over the years and fortunately have learned from some of them (and researched a lot in the process). :cofn:

A gradual water change is fine. I usually turn off the CO2 during the change since it will be washed away (and tap water has a high amount of dissolved CO2 anyway so the plants will happily pearl). Just dose as normal after the change.

One of the biggest mistakes made when setting up a new planted tank is not adding enough plant biomass. You might consider adding some fast growing floating plants, these will help to keep balance until your lower plants really gain a foothold. I promise you, you will not regret it (unless you use duckweed ).

[hovmoller]

ahhh duckweed :love:

[kiwiplymouth]

I actually turn on the autochanger on my big tank so that it gets a full turnover over the

Tell me more about your auto changer Jen

[Jennifer]

Cold water tap>hose>tank>overflow>hose>lawn :cofn: