Joshlikesfish Posted October 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Plan is to get the insulation done this saturday. How do I apply it to the walls and ceiling? I cant put it in the walls of the garage as they're not removable. I need to make sure the insulation is really tight. How do I make sure it is? Pretty worried that I stuff it up and have wasted the money :-? If anybody has done the room this way i'd love to hear about it Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Liquid nails or another adhesive of some sort? Do you have to be able to remove it at a later date? What are the walls made of that you're joining it to? If wood, not gib board, you could just use screws through the poly that way it's removable when you leave there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshlikesfish Posted October 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Its my grandparents house which i plan to leave in for the next few years. I'm 16 and hoping to move out in 3-4 years (if we don't all die in 2012 :lol:, got to keep those things in mind when planning for the future ) Not sure if I would want to take that stuff to my next place, doubt I can have a fish room in the first house. But who knows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hovmoller Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Pictures speak a thousand words Josh.. as per other thread if you can post a pic or two of what sort of walls you are dealing with then people will better be able to give you advice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfishybuisness Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Did you try that place I gave you ,I found that they were quiet cheap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshlikesfish Posted October 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Pictures speak a thousand words Josh.. as per other thread if you can post a pic or two of what sort of walls you are dealing with then people will better be able to give you advice Will do it first thing after school Did you try that place I gave you ,I found that they were quiet cheapWill also do that second thing after school Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Its my grandparents house which i plan to leave in for the next few years. I'm 16 and hoping to move out in 3-4 years (if we don't all die in 2012 :lol:, got to keep those things in mind when planning for the future ) Not sure if I would want to take that stuff to my next place, doubt I can have a fish room in the first house. But who knows wow you plan quite far in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfishybuisness Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 i'd say,i'm just planning to finish school and pass exams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Plan is to get the insulation done this saturday. How do I apply it to the walls and ceiling? I cant put it in the walls of the garage as they're not removable. I need to make sure the insulation is really tight. How do I make sure it is? Pretty worried that I stuff it up and have wasted the money :-? If anybody has done the room this way i'd love to hear about it Thanks I just cut little squares of poly and used nails the ply stops the nail pulling through the poly and is really easy to remove when you are done. You can also use silicone inbetween the poly sheets to seal them up and stop any drafts. I got some sheets of 20mm poly from a company called bondor today really cheap they manufacture it so would be a really good cheap place to go and get some if you don't already have some. http://www.bondor.co.nz/index.php/page/4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hovmoller Posted October 28, 2010 Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 Saw your pics in the other thread.. Very hard to see whats going on in those pics (ok i know I'm not easy to please) but I got an idea a least.. Big windows.. as you said these has to be insulated in front of at least during winter (you can decide depending on your power bill) and I would take the blinds out so you can make a smooth connection between wall and ceiling. Can't tell what the ceiling is but I say poly over the whole lot and fix with many flat headed nails or something.. same goes for walls. Most glues will disolve poly and I don't know what silicone does to it (people here say it's ok) but I would personally not silicone every poly joint... That is HEAPS of work.. I would only use the nails and then tape over all poly joints.. I've seen duct tape used on poly before and it seems to bond fine. The main problem here beside insulating the carp out of the whole room is condensation.. With winter outside and a fish room inside will create lots and lots of condensation.. so if there are tiny cracks in the poly or other places moisture will get through and condensate on the back of the poly where it is cold and that could lead to some serious rot/fungus problems in those areas.. (reverse leaky building syndrome ) So the whole idea here is to try to create a complete damp proof shell around your fish room (in theory at least.. this is never completely possible) This leads to another point.. You must provide good ventilation ie. getting rid of moist air (before it can condensate on the walls) and do the best you can to prevent evaporation from the tanks themselves if you can.. If this is a garage there is probably not any ventilation there at the moment.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshlikesfish Posted October 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 Removing the blinds was part of the plan. Will use 50mm thick poly on the windows, 25mm thick on the walls? Flat head nail through the poly into the ply I assume? (i failed all forms of woodwork and have very little knowledge in the DIY aspect) Will then tape it up a few times with thick duct tape? I think the ceiling is jib? Someone mentioned aeration earlier, dehumidifier every so often? That'd be the ventalation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted October 28, 2010 Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 You get an expanding type foam insulation thing that is easy and cheap to do I think. IIRC my old landlords in a previous house insulated the entire roof for about 300-400 bucks at most. I'd imagine a room would be very cheap, especially if you have the poly and just need a gap between the wall and poly to be filled in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hovmoller Posted October 28, 2010 Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 Yep fix poly with long flat head nail to either ply or gib behind.. then tape (single strip will do) over all poly joints and corners with duct tape or similar that will stick well to the poly. About the thickness of the poly.. if the walls are not insulated then there is not much difference between that and the window so I would just use same thickness throughout. When u consider thickness then you get a lot of insulation out of 25mm but relatively little more when going to 50mm.. Eg: You want your fishroom to be 20 degree and it's 5 degrees outside = 15 degree difference. The you need around 60 watts/m2 of wall to keep that temperature inside.. If you put 25mm poly on you would need around 19 watts/m2 to keep same temp. But going to 50mm poly you need around 10 watt/m2 to keep that temp.. So yes 50mm is always better but you only save an extra 9 watts/m2 for double the thickness. especially if you have the poly and just need a gap between the wall and poly to be filled in. Please do NOT fill in any gap that is between the poly and the wall/ceiling. Air gap here is a good thing. Concentrate on getting the poly "envelope" airtight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted October 28, 2010 Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 Saw your pics in the other thread.. Very hard to see whats going on in those pics (ok i know I'm not easy to please) but I got an idea a least.. Big windows.. as you said these has to be insulated in front of at least during winter (you can decide depending on your power bill) and I would take the blinds out so you can make a smooth connection between wall and ceiling. Can't tell what the ceiling is but I say poly over the whole lot and fix with many flat headed nails or something.. same goes for walls. Most glues will disolve poly and I don't know what silicone does to it (people here say it's ok) but I would personally not silicone every poly joint... That is HEAPS of work.. I would only use the nails and then tape over all poly joints.. I've seen duct tape used on poly before and it seems to bond fine. The main problem here beside insulating the carp out of the whole room is condensation.. With winter outside and a fish room inside will create lots and lots of condensation.. so if there are tiny cracks in the poly or other places moisture will get through and condensate on the back of the poly where it is cold and that could lead to some serious rot/fungus problems in those areas.. (reverse leaky building syndrome ) So the whole idea here is to try to create a complete damp proof shell around your fish room (in theory at least.. this is never completely possible) This leads to another point.. You must provide good ventilation ie. getting rid of moist air (before it can condensate on the walls) and do the best you can to prevent evaporation from the tanks themselves if you can.. If this is a garage there is probably not any ventilation there at the moment.. Yeah use any old nails with the ply, the ply stops it from pulling through make sure there are 2 of you to help get things setup before nailing especially when doing the roof, also make sure you know where your studs are in case you want to attach anything solid I would suggest marking the poly top/bottom with a vivid line or something where the studs are. I used standard silicone from mitre10 the cheapest stuff and it worked fine, it actually takes stuff all time to do all your joins lick your finger and then smear it all off probably just as long as taping it by the time you tangle the tape up a few times and have to stick a few layers on to cover the join or where you go on an angle lol trust me I have done it on 2 rooms now ended up ripping it all off (what little was still stuck) and siliconing it.. I haven't found any tape that sticks to poly long term and it looks ugly as well, I was using it and then using a stable gun to hold it on as well until someone mentioned the silicone which works out really well. I had condensation issues behind the poly in my first room so ran a dehumidifier in the second time, when I pulled that one down it was perfect underneath so I would recommend that, it also makes the room warmer. I run a dehumidifier full time in my room on its "normal" setting plumbed to drain constantly outside. I also tried to have half descent lids on all tanks and things to reduce the amount of water that was evaporating. As I said I have built 2 fishrooms using these methods and these are the things I found to improve them, my second room was alot more efficient than my first using the things I have mentioned above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshlikesfish Posted October 29, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2010 Yep fix poly with long flat head nail to either ply or gib behind.. then tape (single strip will do) over all poly joints and corners with duct tape or similar that will stick well to the poly. About the thickness of the poly.. if the walls are not insulated then there is not much difference between that and the window so I would just use same thickness throughout. When u consider thickness then you get a lot of insulation out of 25mm but relatively little more when going to 50mm.. Eg: You want your fishroom to be 20 degree and it's 5 degrees outside = 15 degree difference. The you need around 60 watts/m2 of wall to keep that temperature inside.. If you put 25mm poly on you would need around 19 watts/m2 to keep same temp. But going to 50mm poly you need around 10 watt/m2 to keep that temp.. So yes 50mm is always better but you only save an extra 9 watts/m2 for double the thickness. Please do NOT fill in any gap that is between the poly and the wall/ceiling. Air gap here is a good thing. Concentrate on getting the poly "envelope" airtight Pretty interesting informantion. Leave the gaps. Got it Thanks Ryan, what type of silicone was it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted October 29, 2010 Report Share Posted October 29, 2010 Yeah the air gaps underneath help hold the heat, all insulation is is air gaps which keep the heat in and cold out.. The air gaps won't do much unless they are sealed.. I can't even remember the brand I just went in and brought some no more gaps type stuff that was on special for one lot and the other lot was one I found getting thrown out at work because it had expired.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshlikesfish Posted October 29, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2010 Sweeet Are dehumidifiers expensive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted October 29, 2010 Report Share Posted October 29, 2010 Sweeet Are dehumidifiers expensive? I think we paid $300ish for our household one. They're more than you expect but not a killer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshlikesfish Posted October 29, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2010 I think we paid $300ish for our household one. They're more than you expect but not a killer. The room wall and insulations costing less then that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted October 29, 2010 Report Share Posted October 29, 2010 I paid $20-30 for mine off trade me, summer is the right time to buy them because not many people use them in summer. Look for one with a drain hole at the back so you can plumb it in without too much DIY. http://www.trademe.co.nz/browse/searchr ... uggested=0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted October 29, 2010 Report Share Posted October 29, 2010 Also remember an old dehumidifier is VERY power intensive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted October 29, 2010 Report Share Posted October 29, 2010 Yeah my old one is 220w it is probably on halt the time due to the humidity level I have it set to so it probably costs around $15-20 a month to run but I think it is worth it for the amount of moisture that is out of the room and it seems warmer with just a dehumidifier running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hovmoller Posted October 29, 2010 Report Share Posted October 29, 2010 Yeah don't skimp on the ventilation/dehumidification even though it is an expensive part of your project.. Your grandparents will not be pleased if you don't keep the condensation at bay and after 3 years when you move out the garage is half rotten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshlikesfish Posted October 29, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2010 We have a 2L volume that cant be plumbed out the wall and its 300W. So i'll troll TM till i find one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oO SKIPPY Oo Posted October 29, 2010 Report Share Posted October 29, 2010 if you have one already i wouldnt bother buying another - just make sure that you check the bucket daily and empty as required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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