hovmoller Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 So I have just destroyed my most beautiful Kribensis male offspring yet.. He was an absolute stunner.. except he was born with a crooked mouth (where the top and bottom jaw is offset from each other). I did it because I think since natural selection doesn't play a big part in fishkeeping it is in the best interrest of this hobby to "weed out" potentially mutant genes like that. I cannot of course be sure it is something genetic. And then of course it becomes human selection (which really I'm against.. just look at how silly a goldfish looks!) The reason I'm writting this is because I'm interrested to know what other people do and especially what breeders do as "general practise" when it comes to selecting whether to keep a fish or destroy it? My wife said: "but it's so beautiful how can you just kill it? if you don't want it then give it to someone who does..." I think I should not give it to someone who might just breed it. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 For me it depends on the point of breeding. If you are trying to create something particular or are looking to the future of the breed/clan etc then yes you should cull. If not too fussed and your hobby doesn't affect other people, fish don't get sold on etc then there's no harm in letting the bung ones live out their lives I suppose. That is unless the unwanted characteristic is going to cause the fish a problem of course. Your fish could have had no end of eating and health difficulties with a deformed jaw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 In nature there can be a high percentage of offspring from fish, reptiles etc that have deformities and usually they will not survive because of natural selection. If we keep all the deformed offspring and paticularly if we breed them we will end up with all out tanks full of deformed fish. Having said that, this is the way that the deformed goldfish sold in the shops were actually created. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcon021 Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 Good topic! I do cull the runts and the ones that don't look good from birth BUT if the deformity was due to an injury I don 't mind breeding from such individual. Goldfish is a good example and the same goes for someof the crappy cichlids out there. Mainly Malawi cichlids. Selective breeding is something that I like but if that leads to a bad outcome I would rather not go down that path. I love some of the selective bred Malawi peacocks eg. Ruby red peacocks, albino eureka reds, fire fish, dragon bloods etc.... They are some great looking fish. If it wasn't for selective breeding we won't have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#!CrunchBang Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 The thing I am concerned about is inbreeding and causing genetic bottle necks. Can end up causing deformities etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfishybuisness Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 for me when this happens, i just seperate that certain fish and dont breed from it, they live happy lives sometimes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 Ethics are an interesting one and allot of people breeding/selling fish seem to be lacking them.. IMO if you are going to the effort to breed and sell fish then you have a responsibility to take some effort or duty of care to ensure that you are producing nice fish worth spreading. It is quite frustrating being a breeder and seeing people ruin what you spend so much time and money trying to achieve or just breeding rubbish making up names for it and selling it. Inbreeding is a very interesting one found a good quote based around electric yellows but holds true for all species.. .."I mention this because I have heard a lot of people bag on yellow labs and breeders, suggesting that they have been over-bred. True, there are many breeders out there that are not patient or careful and put up for sale anything that hatches. BUT, a fish can be bred for hundreds of generations and still retain is beauty and fitness, as demonstrated by Pierre Brichard. In fact, some of the most spectacular fish you will ever see - you know, the ones that win all the shows - have been line bred. The best looking progeny from each generation are pulled out and then bred to each other. Sometimes, the best genes aren't those that come from the lake (F0), but from a carefully maintained line. This isn't unethical, in my opinion. These people are simply selecting the more desirable traits and retaining them. If you find this reprehensible, next time you see a black-barred yellow lab next to a clean one, ask yourself which you'd rather own, or purchase for that matter..." from http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/l_caeruleus.php And more interesting discussion on it here http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=233277 which is the stance I tend to take too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 I agree with most of above and do my best to remove the rubbish where I can but it can be tough sometimes. I had to kill off about 30 angels last night because they were not up to standard and I wouldn’t sell them. Sometimes good sense (IMO) has to take over though. Some of the fish I have fry from at the moment are really rare, die extremely easily and usually have skewed sex ratios so I want to keep as many alive as possible at almost any cost. I suppose the old saying that says if you compromise for a good reason you will compromise for a bad one applies here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hovmoller Posted October 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 And more interesting discussion on it here http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=233277 which is the stance I tend to take too. Good link Ryan.. I found that I agreed with this quote: I firmly believe that the poor stock you see for example in most of the chain stores is the result of a lack of selection by commercial breeders who sell everything that hatches. In nature selection is extremely effective, and it is part of the job of responsible breeders to try and replicate that. Inbreeding is commonplace in nature. It is the only rational explanation for the incredible diversity of cichlids in the Rift Lakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 If it goes well it is called selective line breeding and if it goes sour it is called inbreeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navarre Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 Hmmm I have heard that some where before Alan? People should read Raymond Opinhimers books Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 Got hath spoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#!CrunchBang Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 Biologically speaking, 3rd cousins is the limit or boundary of inbreeding where genetic diversity is concerned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 I think people worry about it too much. Look at the colonies of native lizards in NZ that occupy a very small area and have inbred probably for thousands of years without any noticable problems. Of course it is different with humans but if there was no inbreeding we would not have any people to stand for parliament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 :rotf: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony law Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 :rotf: :rotf: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruju Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 Get a large predator tank (Jag/bichirs etc) then use the cull fish as food, then they dont go to complete waste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amtiskaw Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 Muh muther's muh sista! Is that a banjo I hear playing in the background? :lol: I've often wondered about how resistant fish are to mutations from inbreeding - interesting topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Li@m Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burrowssj Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 My fish roam in a big tank with multiple pairs of fish, only the best an strongest fish survive. I found separating the babies from the parents only stressed the fish an resulted in undesirable behavior. I have yet to sell any babies from my kribensis as I want to see how the grow out an what colours they have as mine are all brother an sister its sorta abit of a gamble putting them out for sale... just my useless 2c lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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