THE INDUSTRY BEHIND THE HOBBY.

[Ira]

It could be argued that the lack of outbreaks proves the regs effectiveness.

[reef]

Sure , that is what we have argued in the submissions.

Other countries in the world are having problems, however this is due to the number they import and no quarantine period at all.

Also out cooler climate helps.

[Stella]

Quarantine of imported fish is esential if we are to avoid nasties being introduced and it costs so please get used to it.

FACTS is that there has been no outbreak of disease in recent times that has been the result of imported fish

Because the system is working and the nasties are (generally) getting caught.

The hobby import system is accidentally introducing zooplankton to NZ, diseases are much smaller than that.

[Rabbit]

Since when did this become an argument on the quarantine periods? no one is debating the fact there required, what is a draw back is a need for another system (testing) when there has ever been a problem in the past. Dont fix what isn't broken. Its simply a money making scheme, there should not be a cost associated with this as we are more than aware Incorrectly ID'd fish come in all the time simply lucky none of those have been invasive, or disease carriers etc.

[alanmin4304]

How can one establish that a fish does not have or is carrying a disease without testing. This even applies to humans--the medical labs are pretty busy.

[alanmin4304]

I see goldfish are on the proposed approved list but as high risk. Considering when I imported them they had to be quarantined for 4 years,and then they were banned, I can't see them making it easy or even financially viable.

[livingart]

How can one establish that a fish does not have or is carrying a disease without testing. This even applies to humans--the medical labs are pretty busy.

that is probably the crux of the matter and why the new system is being put in place

[reef]

The hobby import system is accidentally introducing zooplankton to NZ

How? Water are in fish tanks.

If you are looking for Zooplankton go and check the millions of tons of water being dumped by Ships?

As mentioned, no system is perfect but importing fish has a far lower risk than importing Bananas vegetables etc.

As for testing fish , there is more than just paying for a test, there is the also additional MAF visits etc,.

And no doubt as the years go by the cost of testing will increase and so will the high risk fish list.

MAF can test all it likes, however should be covered by them.

Far more powerful actions would be to improve education, like big signs in stores to say things like. wash hands etc, no dumbing of fish etc,

So far quarantine has worked so way add more costs to the hobby for things that might happen.

[alanmin4304]

Unfortunately the country is run by accountants and you and I voted for them. Everthing is judged by money. You are a success if you make lots of money and your hobby is worthwhile if it doesn't cost the ratepayer or taxpayer money. Does the Government subsidise golf, getting blotto in the weekends or other hobbies?

[alanmin4304]

I know about inspection costs---I had 7 inspections in the first 6 weeks of quarantine.

[pink_fish]

It seems to me that the whole import thing is geared to the protection of the fishing hobby in NZ rather than the fish keeping or native fish protection hobbies. Everthing is geared to economics and the accountants are running the place so the fish keeper has no clout while people can quote how much the country makes from fishing. The big worry seems to be the intoduction of diseases that could kill trout and salmon. Natives and exotics don't count.

Hmmm, well, given that the fishing industry worldwide is about to implode, this seems remarkably shortsighted if indeed this is what they are trying to do.

[breakaway]

Freakin government. First, they doubled the ACC levies for motorcyclists by portraying the motorcyclists as baby-killing criminals to the general public, thus putting a dent in one of my hobbies. Now, they want my fish too.

I see that recently, they've turned on bicyclists as well.

I don't think we're far from a revolution.

[Stella]

How? Water are in fish tanks.

If you are looking for Zooplankton go and check the millions of tons of water being dumped by Ships?

Really interesting paper on it here: http://www.springerlink.com/content/l40w8667r75ug82p/

"The freshwater aquarium trade as a vector for incidental invertebrate fauna". NZ-based. Also got other papers on wild spread. If you are interested and can't access it, I can email you a .pdf.

Of course ballast is a problem, that is not being argued. Just because x is worse than y does not make x acceptable.

As mentioned, no system is perfect but importing fish has a far lower risk than importing Bananas vegetables etc.

But that depends on what system you are talking about. If the Colorado potato beetle arrived (for example), that would have dramatic consequences on the a whole variety of crops and the economies involved. The native fish won't care.

It would matter to the fish if an exotic disease or carnivorous fish, but the potato-growers won't care.

MAF can test all it likes, however should be covered by them.

Perhaps subsidied by the tax payers then?

[oscnz]

I think goverment bodys and the like should ask people before comeing up with some scare story like they are doing with this. Im quite discusted in this goverment BS

[David R]

Guppies, mollies and koi have been proven to establish and reproduce in NZ.

Koi are temperate, and the only guppies/mollies I am aware of live in thermally heated streams, and there aren't too many of them constant and stable enough to support most tropical species.

Stella, are there any native species that live in 20C+ water [thermally heated, such as the area where the "wild" mollies are found] that could potentially displaced by tropical species should they be released in sufficient numbers to establish a population? Also how do the more temperate native species handle warmer water (say 20C+)? If I understand correctly, they [the natives] don't do well at all at higher temperatures, so if the water is warm enough to theoretically support tropical species then isn't the warm water a bigger problem than the potential of having an invasive tropical species become established?

It could be argued that the lack of outbreaks proves the regs effectiveness.

Exactly. We can live with the current regulations, however treating different species of the same genus that are nearly identical to ones already allowed as a completely new organism is just ridiculous. And as I said before, increasing the restrictions etc on importing tropical species is absolute bs, just bureaucrats trying to justify their existence. How anyone like MAF can claim to be concerned with the preservation of our native waterways while allowing and encouraging fish like trout to remain here is beyond me. I guess its a trade off between the threat/damage to the ecosystem and the potential for revenue, hell I bet they'd allow kiwi to be hunted for pillow stuffing if the price was right...

no one is debating the fact there required, what is a draw back is a need for another system (testing) when there has [n]ever been a problem in the past. Dont fix what isn't broken. Its simply a money making scheme, there should not be a cost associated with this as we are more than aware Incorrectly ID'd fish come in all the time simply lucky none of those have been invasive, or disease carriers etc.

Amen. The incompetency MAF/biosecurities/erma manage the list with astounds me. The lack of keeping up with correct naming of species and the number of incorrectly identified fish that come in really proves they don't know what they're doing. And the reason they don't want to tackle the problem is because they would need to admit that.

I really hope someone at one of those authorities is reading this, they really should be grateful that we [as a hobby] are trying to play their game and work with their ridiculous and awkward system, because it sure would be a whole lot easier to work around it and bring new stuff in through the back door under different names....

[alanmin4304]

Testing imported fish for diseases is not new, they have been doing it for a long time. Charging for it is newer but I am sure all those that believe in "user pays" would be happy to pay as they are the ones using.

[reef]

Really interesting paper on it here:

Was thinking more on marines not Freshwater, and in any case it is low risk anyway if water is poured in the garden.

Again Education required not putting extra financial pressure on the hobby.

[spoon]

in regards to this extra hassle being due to nz fishing hobby and fishing industry due to "implode"

its because of trout the govt makes a lot of money from fishing licsences and related things they are particuarly worried that a imported exotic fish could affect this income, neglecting the fact that a trout is an imported exotic organism doing damage already , i find the fact that they value trout higher than our already struggling native fish disgusting but as said before its all about money, pity the wont recognise trout as a unwanted organism

[Rabbit]

Testing imported fish for diseases is not new, they have been doing it for a long time. Charging for it is newer but I am sure all those that believe in "user pays" would be happy to pay as they are the ones using.

I'm not happy to pay as i dont believe there job as necessary or at the least warrants them being paid.

Sounds like someone who no longer imports now works for Maf?

[livingart]

Sounds like someone who no longer imports now works for Maf?

[henward]

petition?

how do you stop it?

[alanmin4304]

What petition and what do you want to stop?

Quarantine of imported fish is a fact of life as is testing for disease and paying for it so get used to it.

You cannot expect the taxpayer to pay for your hobby unless you are prepared to pay for their hobby.

It will make breeding fish more profitable, particularly the high risk varieties, so go for it.

[David R]

The taxpayer pays for many peoples hobbies, look at all the funding for arts and amateur sports. My rates go towards maintaining sports fields I'll never use.....

Alan you seem to have missed the point of the thread, no one is suggesting we stop quarantining fish, what we don't want is even more restrictions and costs placed on importers. You say it will make breeding fish more profitable, that is an absolute load of crap. Can you really see people setting up huge facilities to breed clown loaches, arowana, and all the countless other fish that aren't easy to breed in an average sized aquarium? If the importation of fish is stopped or made financially unviable you can kiss goodbye to half of the interesting species of fish available here.

What I really want to know is are you just playing the devils advocate for the fun of it, or do you genuinely believe that MAF is doing the right thing by getting even tougher on imports.....

[henward]

david has a point.

for example, some species will never survive this climate.

sure disease may be a problem thats what quarantine is for.

say the south american payara armatus. Heavily tropical. If you release one in the wild, it will die for sure.

catfishes i can understand but most species we want to bring in will never establish let alone survive for a moment.

why are freshwater stingrays illegal.... you can get stung and find normal sting rays in our beaches....

i guess what i get out of it is that there is a major inconsistency with logic and common sense when it comes to govt and MAF policies.

snakes and reptiles i can also undersatnd, some MAY breed.

but most fish never will.

like i said, bar some very selected groups like cat fish - they can survive an african drought in extremely toxic water.

I think Maf systematically places policy to revenue gather.

cos they can.

not against maf as such, i just think its soemthing most govt departments with power do

[alanmin4304]

I am trying to point out the realities of life as a fish keeper.

Quarantine of imported fish is esential

Testing of imported fish is esential

We live in a user pays society so paying for testing is esential

This is not new. Maf have been testing fish for a long time and charging for it almost as long. It may not suit some people to be told this but these things have been going on in the south Island for a very long time and importers here have been asking for a level playing field---perhaps it is coming.

Maf found Piscene TB in one variety of goldfish I imported and they took them all away and destroyed them. They took one of each of nine varieties to test for disease and then came back and took another sample of each to confirm they were not koi. 7 inspections in 6 weeks and each costing nearly as much as the fish cost. That was many years ago. That is the reality of life in the import business--that is why there are not many importers.

After I was asked to attend a meeting with Maf and fish importers(and ended up chairing the meeting as I was the only independent one there) We were escorted to a quarantine facility in Auckland that was held up as an example. There were at least 5 varieties of fish there that were prohibited including baby white clouds and orandas any of which a person in Christchurch would have lost their licence over. One of the senior Maf people stood in front of a tank of baby white clouds and said what a good thing for the country it was that the importer was breeding neons. In Christchurch at that time it was not permitted to breed in a quarantine facility let alone white clouds. We had agreed to remain quiet about anything before we went. Welcome to the real world.