The Reptile hobby in New Zealand

[alanmin4304]

All we need is a very rich hobyist that is prepared to go to court and see them out. They would have to of course have made their money from other than herps.

[Dave+Amy]

I am all for establishing a legal list, and i would love some of the reptiles mentioned in this thread however i do not see it being a reality until their is a economical benefit to NZ economy, and with our small population and even smaller hobby that wont happen.

paying for liscences every year for the hobby could be a financial gain and be re-invested into conservation NZ? I can see both the sides with a 'threat' to our ecosystem - ie. purposeful/accidental releases etc etc they drilled this into us in all the ecology papers at uni that you just cannot predict how a foreign organism will respond to a new environment, it could go either way.

But the problem stands that the powers who control this are too outdated, if they were smart they could use this hobby to help with New Zealand's conservation programs IMO anyways.

[acanthurus]

I think the chances of them ever allowing the importation of new species is remote to say the least. I mean after all, why should they? As pointed out above there are many diseases out there tht affect reptiles (for example OMPV), and we really have no idea what would happen if they appeared over here. In the end I would even argue that it could be considered a little selfish for us to expect imports to happen (as much as I would love to see some new species).

From the point of view of what is already here however it is a different matter. In an ideal world we would have a law abiding and trusting group of reptile keepers, and a government agency that was proactive about working with keepers to acheive the best outcome. Unfortunatly however this is obviously not the case.

In this ideal world I could see the most effective means of progressing from where we are now to be an amnesty. Basically all keepers would be given a short time i.e. 2 months, to declare what they have without any fear of reprisal. In turn with this information on hand the government agency would risk assess each species in a realistic and fair manner (i.e. not just using it as an excuse to confiscate and destroy evrything they find). Obviously there will be some definate no-no's, for example a cane toad, which will be destroyed without prosecution.

Once they have finalised the list they make a database and register the animals that are here and initiate a licencing system, similar to what is in Australia, where all bearths death and sales are recorded. Sales will only be allowed to other licenced keepers.

The beauty of this system is that after the initial hassle of getting it in place it makes it all very simple to enforce. If you are found with an unknown species or an unregistered animal it will be by definition illegal and they will be free to charge without any legal doubts.

I would love to see something like this in place but given the provisors above I cant see it happening...

[alanmin4304]

The problem would be that I would not be surprised if there were cane toads or even snakes out there and I doubt that people silly enough to have them would also be silly enough to declare them knowing they would be destroyed.

[acanthurus]

Agreed, as noted in the provisors above...

There will always be those who choose to operate outside the system. My suggestion would be to use money from fees to icrease the policing and the potential charges.

[acanthurus]

Another thing to keep in mind which has really worked in the systems favor in Australia, is being openly involved in the hobby with animals you can freely show off, advertise and sell, and is a great incentive for keeping on the right side of the law.

[WTM]

The problem would be that I would not be surprised if there were cane toads or even snakes out there and I doubt that people silly enough to have them would also be silly enough to declare them knowing they would be destroyed.

Well to a point aside from the truly stupid (i.e. snakes) I think a case can be made than many animals could be kept safely (from the countries perspective) within a licensed system, with those deemed as not-desired allow to remain for the remainder of their natural lifespan.. (i.e. as with pet ferrrets some years ago).

Also bearing in mind that many of the exotics have 0 chance of surviving and breeding succesfully without human intervention.

For an amnesty to work, then really it needs to be a true amnesty, with obvious exclusions stated up front (snakes, etc). While the right to pick and choose is held by MAF a vast number of people will just stay quiet... (after all they've survived until now with their pets, why risk the pets life now?).

The best insurance against action against our hobby, (at least on a species by species basis) is to get as many people owning reptiles (responsibly) as possible. Once a critical mass is reached, it becomes much more difficult for MAF to act.... i.e. imagine MAF trying to ban pet rabbits, it just would never fly, even though they are a noxious pet (fyi - I am a rabbit owner as well).

[Insect Direct]

atleast with a system, and controlled imports, the risk is surely easier to manage and less demand for smuggling. = much less risk to native fauna than at present..

[Navarre]

The system proposed above, wasnt that what was supposed to happen last time round?

Would be happy if was fair and equitable.

however would they replace what was lost.

I mean if recompense is sort for the iggies, for example.

Would like be replaced with like?

I wonder?

[alanmin4304]

Didn't someone get some expensive macaws taken of them and they died in the care of Maf. I understand they went for replacement but I don't know what the result was.

[acanthurus]

I think both sides would have to be prepared to make some sacrifices. Maybe it would be a stretch to expect compensation for confiscated animals. For example, how does one determine the value of an animal?

[livingart]

how does one determine the value of an animal?

the price paid for it and if a pair then 50% of the potential off spring for the next 3 years

oh plus the stress and emotional harm that was caused

[reptilenutt]

Didn't someone get some expensive macaws taken of them and they died in the care of Maf. I understand they went for replacement but I don't know what the result was.

There were a lot of people that had there macaws taken from them and most got them back ..but some were not in the same state there were when taken .. One peson I do know of toke them to court and they did not show ....

[alanmin4304]

So what was the court decision?

[henward]

everyone can pool money together.

wether or not its spent the right way is another question

i would contribute money to it.

Who else?

thats the problem.

and who would administer that money....

you do need someone rich to lobby, and lobby hard.

thats the only way.

OR one of us needs to get a job with DOC and MAF and convince the top to look into it.

[Stella]

Why not get such a system up and running yourselves? It could make it much easier to convince MAF of the virtues of it that way.

The FNZAS have their own system for registering breedings, model it off that, only go a little further to include matings, births, deaths, sales and ownership records. Obviously voluntary and 100% legal species only.

I imagine people will argue that it won't work, that you will never get all the animals. But you don't have to. Just design the system and get enough people on board to show them that it works.

[henward]

maybe as a group, we can sit maf down and they listen

[phoenix44]

As a group?

Perhaps the concept of "unity" should be on the table before you sit down with MAF. :lol:

[Insect Direct]

Why not get such a system up and running yourselves? It could make it much easier to convince MAF of the virtues of it that way.

The FNZAS have their own system for registering breedings, model it off that, only go a little further to include matings, births, deaths, sales and ownership records. Obviously voluntary and 100% legal species only.

I imagine people will argue that it won't work, that you will never get all the animals. But you don't have to. Just design the system and get enough people on board to show them that it works.

Problem is no one seems to even know what is legal.

That sort of system already exists with the NZHS, hardly any of the exotic reptile keepers even disclose what they keep, let alone what they breed each year. May change in time though.

[repto]

let them do their own job.They have access to plenty of govt funding.Stuffed if I want to pay annual fees for permits etc and let them know what I have and where so they can change the rules and come tick off the list I supplied them with and take away any or all my animals at their whim??can`t see any improvement happening .Don`t mind registering my dog but thats where I draw the line!

[reptilenutt]

So what was the court decision?

First time he got 10,ooo so I was told ..he then try again and they still did not turn up and got the same..

Never heared anything after that and the person has now past away ..

[jc254]

let them do their own job.They have access to plenty of govt funding.Stuffed if I want to pay annual fees for permits etc and let them know what I have and where so they can change the rules and come tick off the list I supplied them with and take away any or all my animals at their whim??can`t see any improvement happening .Don`t mind registering my dog but thats where I draw the line!

I can tell you what repto, if MAF wants to know what you have in your collection they are more than entitled to. They can put your door in at 6am, get a warrant for your bank accounts, emails, PM, they can tear this web add apart if they feel it is in the need for bio security or public safety. MAF have allot of power and they are more than welcome to it in my opinion. If you want to really keep a monitor or snake move to Australia, half the reason why people want these lizards is that you could pop a baby monitor for $10,000 when first on the market and they lay massive clutches so again money orientated. I am not saying that about all keepers but most.

I agree a list needs to be confirmed of what we can legally have, however to run a permit system requires staff and operating systems. Also what if you break the rules? can they really afford to prosecute offenders?

whats next, a permit system for rabbit, cats and fish? NZ market doesn't even come close to the Australian, so why compare their permit system to something that can be used here? we done warrant a population to run a system like this.

The whites where in my opinion was unfortunate, i would have loved to own some. However NZ native frog population is endangered, do we really need another frog specie in the mix? competing for food, possibility of disease carrier and predation. People cannot be trusted to keep pets under lock and key, red eared sliders are a brilliant example. They get to big so off the the river they go!

I mean i would love to own some of these species but at what cost it the answer?

[alanmin4304]

Only Maf can declare what is legal and what is not and why would theY put money and resources into sorting that when they can declare something illegal at a whim. It is not only Maf either---The Regional Councils are the ones moving on the Blue tounges.

[acanthurus]

If you want to really keep a monitor or snake move to Australia, half the reason why people want these lizards is that you could pop a baby monitor for $10,000 when first on the market and they lay massive clutches so again money orientated. I am not saying that about all keepers but most.

Sorry jc but your post seems a little ill educated. Im not sure which species of monitor you are talking about that lays massive clutches, but maybe you could enlighten me. For the most part they are actually relatively difficult to breed, have prolonged incubation times and small clutches (in particular the likely species we have over here - storrs, goulds, ridge tailed, and lace). They are slower to mature and require more specialised keeping. To then go on and say most are in it for the money is unfair to say the least. If they were to come out i think they will be expensive ($10000 is a little excessive depending on the species), but if that is the going price then so be it. If you don't want to pay that much for one then don't. I would love to have a monitor and not "just for the money", as I'm sure would many keeperes in NZ.

To be honest your post doesn't strike me as written by someone who has a passion for herps. If you don't then thats your choice, but its a little unfair to make broad sweeping comments about us as a collective.

Your comments on the economics of a reptile permit system are also a little off target. You imply that there is one permit system in place for the whole of Australia. Did you realise that every state and territory has its own laws and system in place. A good example is the NT - much smaller population than NZ, many many more species on their list than we are ever likely to have and the added work of co-ordinating imports and exports with other states. Despite all they have a very effective system in place.

I must also pick up on your comments about the white's tree frogs. Do you realise they have been extensivley released here over a century ago and in all likelyhood have failed to establish. Whilst the odd red ear might end up in the local pond there is no chance them establishing here because they cannot breed. It could easily be argued that much larger threats come from other hobbies in NZ, including aquaculture, dogs, cats and birds. Why arn't we all pushing to have them under lock and key?

Sorry to come down on you so hard and you are more than welcome to your own opinion. However throw away comments and generalisations deserve to be picked up on.

[repto]

ok jc,so your restating alot of what we all know and has already been said apart from your fixation with the austraian market?Personally would not touch a harmless snake with a bargepole and monitor lizards not any interest either?They in fact would have more constraints than us if it wasn`t for the wide range of reptiles that were there already?Try and get a red ear or tortoise over there?

"can they afford to prosecute offenders"? well one would hope so when the whole basis of our country`s economy is agriculture based.