The Reptile hobby in New Zealand

[henward]

i said MOST dont pay tax. Most people on TM who are not commercially registered - that may only do it as a side thing will not pay tax. you do... great, thast fine, im not targetting specifics, im just saying generally.

ACANTHUrus:

No complete back flip.... you dont nkow me, i am a capitalist, i would wanna make money if i can...what i am adverse to is the claim that some reptiles breeders are "robin hoods" of the hobby.

sure there might be an element of making them more common, but that is always tied in with wanting to make some money.

that is what i am against, the statement above, not making money.

acanthurus, there is no black flip on my statement - it was made for a specific context.

If bill gates came to me saying that he started microsoft cos he watned to save african kids....thats a lie.

but if he said he now helps african kids after making a huge amount of money.... that is not a lie

but there is a distinct difference there.

if youc ant see tht different - then you are obviously in denial.

[henward]

waxmot is higher in fat.

crickets can also be fatty.

my leopard geckos and beardies were no where near obese.... they in fact appeared to be quite lean as i fed the BDs veges when i had them.

the leos are fed a mixture of locust, mealworms and at times crickets.

wax moth is too expensive and too fattty anyways.

liek i said, i have followed the advise of a breeder based in the US who exports thousands of geckos a year.

and he recommended a diet for myleopard geckos.

they have grown well, good tail size..... i dotn see a problem.

[acanthurus]

Sorry once again, but can you please point out where anyone (bar you) have claimed to be a 'robin hood'?

[henward]

acanthurus - I never in anytime saidi was a robin hood or claimed to be.

lets not make this specific and personal, as i want to respect the moderators requests to keep this a discussion not an atack.

i will not get specific on a person. you look back at the post

there is no selfless act when it comes to breeding reptiles in nz, i have never seen it and i know we never will - like i said, there is always an element of money in it! and of course thats ok...just dont claim otherwise.

like isaid, lets not make it personal. im stating things as a GENERAL COMMENT.

so why are you attacking me personally?

im over the you me and haisley ok?

im just discussing the reptile hobby now, as per topic.

[henward]

when did i claim to be robin hood

i dont make or imply such claims dude.

[sneaky2]

The exception seems to be tortoise,been in nz 100 odd years,i used to be able to buy an adult male for around $500 13 or so years ago,same thing anywhere from $3000 up today.

i would assume fertility low as were not triping over them when walking down the street...

and demand high because of tm e.c.t 13 /20 years ago only a handfull of keepers n breeders,not many people even new they were here.

[henward]

yeah, tortoises is abit of a mystery.

i mean when theys tart breeding they apparently can have some reasonable numbers but i guess, once again, limited blood lines in NZ - Limited specimens perhaps?

that is definately the exception here in nz. also i think it takes a long time for Tortoises to get of age of breeding.

[Insect Direct]

Nothing much against you Henward, other than some of the things you've said/posted recently, have struck a nerve with me. I think you mean well. You just have a very interesting, some maybe even say arrogant and short sighted way of coming across. Your posts are so long winded and so far from reality I cant even be bothered.

Hardly makes for good discussion, gets a good reaction though doesn't it.

Anyway, you have your opinion I have mine. I think the difference between me and you, is Im actually willing to listen and learn from others. Even admit im wrong every now and again!

[Navarre]

Ahhh tortoises

are a good example

a few females a single illeagal male in private hands

then whoha they are about.

nice example

would love some (hint hint) but not at that price...actually yes at that price cause I think they are worth it...I just cant afford it.

Also I am young enough :roll: to be able to see a planned breeding program to come to fruition....unlike others

But like many of you I have spoken to erma and Maf and agresearch and Doc and said look this is an allowable species here can I have an import standard.

Same time and time again ...there is no plan to issue an Import Standard for reptiles of any kind at this point in time.

SO again my point is it is up to us.

Some peopel I have discussed this with here have mentioned group work to appleal to teh Govt around this...I dimissed thsi novel and unique herpt approach as simply unworkable cause imagine that...us lot working together to make thsi happen....crikey would cut like a surgeon fishes tail that would ( no personal attacks intended)

lmao

[acanthurus]

Henward mate, please don't read into this post as a personal attack and please try to accept it for how it is meant. I admit I was wrong in my previous post to say that you were claiming to be 'Robin Hood' as I agree this is not what you were trying to say.

I'm sure you yourself will admit you have been trying to poke a few people with sticks, and in the end you have to expect a reaction.

I know that you have a passion for the hobby, as we all do, and therefore we must share some similar thoughts. People will often take exception if you try to prove a point by getting high and mighty, especially when in the end you seem to have basically the same beliefs.

You have made a point of shaming those who have made some money out of their hobby, when you yourself admit that you would have done so as well, given the chance.

You made a point of shaming those who have been burnt for pushing the boundaries in this hobby, when you must admit that you have also tried to purchase animals that are not exactly considered green lights legally. I'm sure if you had succeeded in finding anythiing unusual you would have pushed the same boundaries yourself. I'm not saying you were looking to do anything by definition illegal. I'm saying that you to have been an active participant legal no-mans land that is our hobby currently.

I'm sure you can agree that if we choose to build a bridge and get over our little differences then maybe we could focus more clearly on the topics that are affecting our hobby today. I am more than happy to and hope you feel the same way, and hopefully prevent threads descending into this in future.

[livingart]

Ahhh tortoises

are a good example

a few females a single illeagal male in private hands

then whoha they are about.

nice example

would love some (hint hint) but not at that price...actually yes at that price cause I think they are worth it...I just cant afford it.

Also I am young enough :roll: to be able to see a planned breeding program to come to fruition....unlike others

But like many of you I have spoken to erma and Maf and agresearch and Doc and said look this is an allowable species here can I have an import standard.

Same time and time again ...there is no plan to issue an Import Standard for reptiles of any kind at this point in time.

SO again my point is it is up to us.

Some peopel I have discussed this with here have mentioned group work to appleal to teh Govt around this...I dimissed thsi novel and unique herpt approach as simply unworkable cause imagine that...us lot working together to make thsi happen....crikey would cut like a surgeon fishes tail that would ( no personal attacks intended)

lmao

some of us could work together

[livingart]

Henward mate, please don't read into this post as a personal attack and please try to accept it for how it is meant. I admit I was wrong in my previous post to say that you were claiming to be 'Robin Hood' as I agree this is not what you were trying to say.

I'm sure you yourself will admit you have been trying to poke a few people with sticks, and in the end you have to expect a reaction.

I know that you have a passion for the hobby, as we all do, and therefore we must share some similar thoughts. People will often take exception if you try to prove a point by getting high and mighty, especially when in the end you seem to have basically the same beliefs.

You have made a point of shaming those who have made some money out of their hobby, when you yourself admit that you would have done so as well, given the chance.

You made a point of shaming those who have been burnt for pushing the boundaries in this hobby, when you must admit that you have also tried to purchase animals that are not exactly considered green lights legally. I'm sure if you had succeeded in finding anythiing unusual you would have pushed the same boundaries yourself. I'm not saying you were looking to do anything by definition illegal. I'm saying that you to have been an active participant legal no-mans land that is our hobby currently.

I'm sure you can agree that if we choose to build a bridge and get over our little differences then maybe we could focus more clearly on the topics that are affecting our hobby today. I am more than happy to and hope you feel the same way, and hopefully prevent threads descending into this in future.

continually replying keeps this conversation off track

[acanthurus]

Hehe, fair point Navarre.

I would also like a couple of those tortoises if they ever became available

Truth is though that I cant see any import standards happening anytime soon either, and I guess from their point of view what reason would they have to issue one?

[henward]

Hi ID:

if mypost seem arogant, then i apologise, i dont believe they are intended to be so.

but what i can say is that i dont believe my theories regarding the Reptiles are neccesarily far from reality. long winded... ok i agree but that is from making sure that my point is clearly stated, as clearly as i can anyways. and pre emtping any arguament and making a response for them before they are made i guess

I guess, the question is.... i want to hear from someone give us actual figures - to disprove me completely.... i dont see any figures.

This i guess is because what i am saying is not that far from the truth. anyway, i am open to listen if someone tells me something with more substance i guess.

ACANTHURS: i agree, lets put everything aside ay. nopoint of getting personal. i admit that mistake. i guess i reacted - naturally i dont take conflict peacfully.

but the end of the day, i havent really purchased in my knowledge any animals that was abit on the grey side of legalities. If i had mroe patience, money at the time, i sure would have bred some animals - i guess id dint know where to source them before others have sourced them already.... by then i was too late already.

i dont think in the near or distant future, MAF will EVER allow reptiles to be imported for the mainstream...

i wonder, do they have scientists workin at MAF to say which species is a danger or not?

which one can establish or not? would be interesting to know who consults with the rule makers i guess.

[chillz]

Have any Risk analysis or IHS been applied for by private individuals??

All Import Health Standards applied for by Zoo's are for importation into containment only. A draft IHS for Squamata from Australia has been developed for zoos, many species originally applied for did not make the draft (water dragons, pogona sp.) Did they fail at the risk analysis stage?? DOC unhappy??

Dont mean to sound hysterical but does this mean the powers that be may be moving towards classing some species already present as unwanted organisms?

[Insect Direct]

I would love to work together with others in the hope of getting some sort of legitimacy to the hobby. I think its a bit sad I could be raided, simply because I have a couple of Bearded dragons...sounds crazy but doesnt seem impossible.

If we direct our passion (which there is obviously alot around here :lol: ) towards the greater good, then who knows what we could achieve. Even if there is a good number of us willing to work together, where does one start? Facts, research, a petition maybe. Get media involved, try consult with maf/doc or what.......

[livingart]

i wonder, do they have scientists workin at MAF to say which species is a danger or not?

which one can establish or not? would be interesting to know who consults with the rule makers i guess.

costs maf money to do that

easier for them to let someone else do it then they can say yay or nay

if a standard prepared meets all the requirements then legally it should not be denied

[livingart]

I would love to work together with others in the hope of getting some sort of legitimacy to the hobby. I think its a bit sad I could be raided, simply because I have a couple of Bearded dragons...sounds crazy but doesnt seem impossible.

If we direct our passion (which there is obviously alot around here :lol: ) towards the greater good, then who knows what we could achieve. Even if there is a good number of us willing to work together, where does one start? Facts, research, a petition maybe. Get media involved, try consult with maf/doc or what.......

form a society, then apply to affiliate to the fnzas

then start the above

[chillz]

it would be interesting to see if someone could be successful in achieving an IHS for a species that already has a Risk Analysis done, e.g. leopard geckos

[sneaky2]

Have any Risk analysis or IHS been applied for by private individuals??

All Import Health Standards applied for by Zoo's are for importation into containment only. A draft IHS for Squamata from Australia has been developed for zoos, many species originally applied for did not make the draft (water dragons, pogona sp.) Did they fail at the risk analysis stage?? DOC unhappy??

Dont mean to sound hysterical but does this mean the powers that be may be moving towards classing some species already present as unwanted organisms?

BINGO! bluetoungs were the first on the list,took about 4 years for auckland to decide they were unwanted organisim mainly because the were livebearers. I have been told they are methodicaly working through the list.I have also been told they arnt working through the list. :roll: go figure!

[sneaky2]

Ahhh tortoises

are a good example

a few females a single illeagal male in private hands

then whoha they are about.

nice example

would love some (hint hint) but not at that price...actually yes at that price cause I think they are worth it...I just cant afford it.

Also I am young enough :roll: to be able to see a planned breeding program to come to fruition....unlike others

But like many of you I have spoken to erma and Maf and agresearch and Doc and said look this is an allowable species here can I have an import standard.

Same time and time again ...there is no plan to issue an Import Standard for reptiles of any kind at this point in time.

SO again my point is it is up to us.

Some peopel I have discussed this with here have mentioned group work to appleal to teh Govt around this...I dimissed thsi novel and unique herpt approach as simply unworkable cause imagine that...us lot working together to make thsi happen....crikey would cut like a surgeon fishes tail that would ( no personal attacks intended)

lmao

I was refering to greeks ,hermans n boxies been around for a looooong time.

Leopard torts would be a whole other ball game.. :lol:

[henward]

if someone wants to legitimise this hobby fully

i will sign a petition.

but thats the difficulty - you need alot of time and people to sign it.

media attention would help.

get animal activists on it.....

[repto]

the way I see it the `reptile hobby` as its been put ,is a bit like an iceberg.What you see above the waterline is just the tip of it(thats where us legitamite lawabiding types will be found?There are different levels below water with animals of species that we can only dream of??These lower regions may pop up into our space now and again if they want to,but many of them are there happily doing there own thing telling no one nothing.They have been for years and will carry on doing so.

[henward]

yes

that is true, that is true regardless of where you are unless there is absolutely no law regarding importation.

sad, but i dont think reptile hobby here will legitimise

[Morcs]

As bad as it may sound, having the backing of a large nationwide pet shop would help - would add a lot of weight. Just not sure how and if it would work, as everyone seems to enjoy bagging this particular company. They have helped MAF out on occaision too,