smidey Posted November 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 people playing golf can hire clubs...they dont need to buy th best set upfront nor go to the best course can't hire clubs for kids that i am aware of. if 1000 kids start the game then the chances of getting a star is soo much higher than if they take it up as a teenager or older. its very similar to car racing, its not always the best driver that gets to race, its the guy that can afford to pay to race. people getting into fish often go for guppies,minnows and the cheaper often easier fish to care for an breed which isnt a bad thing? if all fish were cheap it would make for an interesting market maybe not much of one at all? I find that the more expensive things are often for a reason ie hard to get or hard to care for and or breed so all relative.....time often balances the price out but markets also change for many reasons. jst another way to look at it this is a good discussion IMO, interesting to see what others think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maaxim Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Hi guys, I don't know what you are talking about prices??? Just have a look at Hollywood Fish Farm and see their prices. For one Damasoni they asking for 26$ !!! I don't think this is the markt price. Tropheus is a very nice fish and not been sold that often than yellows or demasoni for example!!! 35$ for tropheus it's a fair price i think. :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 $25-26 is the market price for dems. we seem to take for granted that breeders sell fish cheaply on here. 35$ for tropheus it's a fair price i think. :roll: they cost more than that wholesale... so remember that shops must pay for Insurance Electricity Equipment IT staff tanks variable costs- maintenance of tanks, depreciation of assets rent / other fixed costs - many many thousands a week in some cases the NPAT associated with each unit of livestock (aquatic) sold is actually marginal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maaxim Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 I know the shops have to pay their bills But in the LFS you NEVER can get Tropheus for less than 60$ or something around that. Selling the fish for 5$/each doesn't help them at all !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 I've had to hold my tongue before as I've watched workers in LFS take $52.00 from the person who can only afford 2X Dems, or $120.00 for two tropheus. I wonder if the argument that a higher price will encourage better fishkeeping practise works when the threat to a fishes existence is the social dynamic of a tank set up. Anyone suggesting that they wouldn't let an auction run past a price they were hoping they would get for a fish or decline an offer that is too much is either a saint or deluding themselves. Even Location of the seller can have a bearing on the price in terms of exposure to the market. And market size is also a contributing factor. how many groups of cuckoo synodontis will i expect to sell at the first sale price? what will i get a group of L270 chocolate zebs for this time nxt year. When L46 young come up for sale how many sales will it take to saturate the market without a reduction in price. Ultimately the reduction of prices can only indicate healthy stock of a fish. It was only 3 yrs ago I paid $60.00 for a single juvi Red empress male. Now I can buy 2 spawns 2cm of fry for that price. The fact that we are going to find it harder and harder to import new species to ignite the passion of breeders to buy is a big issue here. Trying to moralise capitalism has eluded bigger issues than this perhaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Trying to moralise capitalism has eluded bigger issues than this perhaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 no but its really only some of us that pay those prices for some fish. members of this site in most cases do not form the majority of business for a store. also most breeders on here could not satisfy the demand that large stores need, and so lower prices as such do not really have an effect on the equilibrium prices that we have at the moment. also there are those that will only sell to retailers (this may be contractual or otherwise just to reduce hassle) and resort to selling on here for about the same price or on trademe if the retailers cannot purchase stock at that given time. just my views based on real time pricing of fish - sure its added competition, but it at the moment is far too thin a market to worry about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 but surely it is the thin edge of the wedge unless importation practices take a huge change of direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smidey Posted November 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 I've had to hold my tongue before as I've watched workers in LFS take $52.00 from the person who can only afford 2X Dems, or $120.00 for two tropheus. I wonder if the argument that a higher price will encourage better fishkeeping practise works when the threat to a fishes existence is the social dynamic of a tank set up. this is why i will be offering my tropheus at $10 each, so someone can purchase 12 for $120 rather than just two & be successful with them instead of setting themselves up to fail unwittingly. the other step to this will be the way i am prepared to sell them, in groups of 12 for example (i don't know yet but will see) not in pairs unless they already have a group or some other warranting situation that may arise. I want more people to experience tropheus they way they should. the prices of tropheus in stores are high because they cost from the supplier is high. Most of them are costing mid to high $40's per fish, if i was a supplier i would realise these are not going to be big sellers when you combine the high cost & fact that you need a large group to be successful. I would try to source large numbers cheaper so the buy price in store was less so that they are more accessable to the general public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 actually, all my fish have come from members here, johannes, mike & alex mainly. the quality of aficans i have seen from sullpiers is 90% rubbish so i don't want that stock. i am selling small quanities of very small fish, they are about 30mm. $2 is a fair price for such a small fish IMO. If you've got quantities of better quality fish that you're willing to sell cheaply why not pass them on to the supplier so they can be distributed nation wide? Get some decent quality and correctly named fish in the shops rather than the "90% rubbish" you say is out there (I can't comment on the quality of africans in shops as I hardly even look at them). I try to keep my Africans to 4-5cm where I can cull out runts, have a better chance of supplying sexed fish and also giving the buyer a product with which they can do something with, ie not having to grow them out in fry tanks. How many people are buying a bunch of fry to get one lovely male? Good thinking, I wish more people would do this, especially if they're not in it for the money. Just go to trademe and sort the 'Fish' category by lowest price. You'll see convicts, livebearers, kribs, jewels, and various africans all for $0.50-$1.00 for a few fry. You can almost guarantee that these are from unplanned spawnings where a person has bough a couple of fish from the lfs and had them pair up by chance and is now selling off the fry to try to make a buck. There was no quality control in the selection of the parents and there is no quality control of the fry, and you know whats going to happen to the next person who buys a bunch of 5-10 for a couple of dollars? They're going to have them breed and next thing you know there's more cheap low quality fish being pawned for dirt cheap on TradeMe, talking sales away from shops and proliferating mud fish. Imagine if somebody back in the day had the sense to only sell male convict cichlids, I can't help but think that now we'd be able to get big grunty wild caught or F1 cons with good genes and interesting colours imported, or perhaps even bred here by specialist breeders. Instead we have every man and his dog selling runty inbred fry for $0.50.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smidey Posted November 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 If you've got quantities of better quality fish that you're willing to sell cheaply why not pass them on to the supplier so they can be distributed nation wide? Get some decent quality and correctly named fish in the shops rather than the "90% rubbish" you say is out there (I can't comment on the quality of africans in shops as I hardly even look at them). if you do look at them you will see. the suppliers aren't interested in quality, only quanitity & $. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Im guessing that who ever bought these in the beginning got them from a pet shop and were selective in there breeding program... thats our job as breeders Every fish I breed I want to be able to win our shows... if it isnt, they get distroyed. I honestly congratulate you on your breeding program (and those you got your stock from) but they all came in at some stage through an importer and fish shop.... just as mine did way back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Imagine if somebody back in the day had the sense to only sell male convict cichlids they would have been accused of trying to "fix" a market and keep it to themselves the $ is the name of the game for importers, wholesalers and lfs or they go out of business then no fish for anyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insect Direct Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 market sets the price....or is there such a thing as a set price these days. so many sales this that and the other these days its almost as good as the weather. what a time to be alive :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippy_49nz Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 When L46 young come up for sale how many sales will it take to saturate the market without a reduction in price. Kind of off topic but these may not ever be sold here. If they were available there would probably be a dozen breeders willing to put their hand up to acquire some and have a crack at breeding... probably for different reasons. The first question I would have is what is the true price of these? They are no different to any other hypans so in theory shouldn't break a hundred to pick one up. The first few sold if they ever are will be sold at a HUGE premium on this price. Can that be considered a reduction in price if the consumer is being raped because there are no other sources of supply? The first person to ever sell these will face a real test of character. Do they act the mercinary and try to make as much as they can while they can or do they try to offer rare fish to those who can secure their supply within the country and at a reasonable price? Sadly I suspect we all know what will happen if they are ever available. Something to consider... perhaps these type of people are not the best members of a hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 There are a number of ways to look at this. If I pay a heap of money for some fish and breed them, then sell them for half of what I paid but still make a fortune, am I being greedy? My hobby is probably still running at a loss. If you look at most breeders and their overall investment and ongoing expenses few would be making a profit and none would be getting rich so is that greedy? I think it is mainly a way of paying off some of the debt. The market sorts it out in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 zebras will cost $2500 for males only. And only males will be released if the breeders have any sense. This is based on past demand, ofcourse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Really? That's crazy- They are cool but not that cool. Might have to rethink the wishlist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simian Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Dunno about Zebs, I believe we should be able to import them, dont have allowed list on hand atm but we have them documented on the FNZAS breeding scheme. If it comes down to it a flight to the states and 10k would sort out that whole issue IMO. Back to the topic at hand, the biggest issue I have as a breeder is getting rid of my fish! Its so jolly hard to get a solid market, 3 months ago I couldnt give away Kribs, now I'm being asked by LFS if I have any they are buying some in! I find it frustrating, I sell to Club members and LFS but still end up with a glut in my tanks, local fish should be easy to sell locally, they are used to the water, will have less stress on transit, smaller carbon footprint, be in better condition etc etc but they aren't. Its a Giant pain in the backside I wish I could remove. :evil: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcs Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 This comment aimed at no-one in particular: Im of the opinion that it shouldnt matter how much the fish cost unless they are $80+fish. Unless you keep exotic/rare/expensive fish, the livestock is usually the cheapest part of the hobby... if you are arguing about a few bucks on that, you really shouldnt be keeping fish as where are the dollars going to come from for the important stuff - decent equipment etc.. Understandable that some people dont have huge pots of cash for fishkeeping - but its all relative regardless of whether its a tiny 100l tank or a monster 800l tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippy_49nz Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 zebras will cost $2500 for males only. And only males will be released if the breeders have any sense That is bad news for the hobby if anyone was selfish enough to try to hold everyone to ransom by not selling females. To be honest I would not deal with someone if they operated under these conditions out of principle and most decent clubs would blacklist them. That would be the case in dog breeding circles. Isn't it better that everyone be here to help each other and try to breed the best fish possible? When personal agendas creep into it then everyone loses. Who is to say that Tom down the road couldn't do a better job of breeding the fish that someone who holds a monopoly of the known females in the country? As a responsible breeder don't you have an obligation to allow others to try to breed them better than what you can? Also sooner or later there will be a point where a female would make its way into the population either by mistake or through simple overpopulation. No-one who was any good at getting fish to breed could possibly keep all of the females, even if they were only having a half dozen at a time, unless they began culling them simply to maintain a stranglehold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 NO. see this is the problem. everyone thinks they can better mother nature and as a result the last batch of zebras were so terribly inbred that every single one of them were succeptable to exactly the same illnesses. they would have been accused of trying to "fix" a market and keep it to themselves the $ is the name of the game for importers, wholesalers and lfs or they go out of business then no fish for anyone This is exactly the argument davidr and livingart have rightfully put forward. there is no way everyone can get satisfied, and i know if I get zebras or any other fish that has practically been wiped out of this place I certainly will not let any one else breed from them. fact is most breeders don't care about genetics - they only care about bettering fish or selectively breeding an already weakened, thin line of fish. they broke nature and then wondered what went wrong :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippy_49nz Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 I guess I will never understand that. I would prefer to secure the population for everyone to enjoy rather than holding the few so closely to my chest that no-one had any possibility of continuing them. One day every one of use will die. If we hold the only breeding examples of a species then there is a good chance they will die wih us through neglect or inheritance and lack of knowledge. it doesn't make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 the human race doesn't make sense :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 That is bad news for the hobby if anyone was selfish enough to try to hold everyone to ransom by not selling females. To be honest I would not deal with someone if they operated under these conditions out of principle and most decent clubs would blacklist them. That would be the case in dog breeding circles. Isn't it better that everyone be here to help each other and try to breed the best fish possible? When personal agendas creep into it then everyone loses. Who is to say that Tom down the road couldn't do a better job of breeding the fish that someone who holds a monopoly of the known females in the country? As a responsible breeder don't you have an obligation to allow others to try to breed them better than what you can? Also sooner or later there will be a point where a female would make its way into the population either by mistake or through simple overpopulation. No-one who was any good at getting fish to breed could possibly keep all of the females, even if they were only having a half dozen at a time, unless they began culling them simply to maintain a stranglehold. that would be in an idealistic world and that is make belive If some one was to invest the time and money (as you can if you would like?) and get these into the country at possibly an investment of $50000 minimum then sell off the pairs at a "fair" price it would be the first and last time they did it In an idealistic work we should all grow our own food an share with others but it simply does not work Black listed from a club? For the effort of making these available, they should be made life members as they have made an investment that every other person has been too lazy or was not prepare to put their money on the line for. Think about it from the soccer in Wellington where a guy bank rolled the Phenix franchise for a huge loss and with his help, NZ has made the world cup. Here in Auckland, no-one did it and soccer was going down hill. Yes for a few years? possibly this person may well only sell males but surley they would be entitled to get their money back? if for no other reason than to finance their next import of another rear/wanted fish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.