pink_fish Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 When everything is new, you have to cycle the hard way - ie, run the tank fishless for at least a month. You can add some friendly bacteria to help it along - Stresszyme for example. It _may_ be ready for fish sooner – use your nitrate & ammonia test kits to monitor what is going on. Some people do add a fish or two about two weeks in to provide some waste materials for the bacteria to work on (a guppy or danio etc.), but I've always gone the fishless way as I find it gives plants time to start growing properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaide Posted January 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 OK, how do I run the tank fishless without filtration? At the mo, it's just substrate, plants and water (water from another tank) - no heater as yet, or is the heater required for the cycling process? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimebag Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 When everything is new, you have to cycle the hard way - ie, run the tank fishless for at least a month. You can add some friendly bacteria to help it along - Stresszyme for example. It _may_ be ready for fish sooner – use your nitrate & ammonia test kits to monitor what is going on. Some people do add a fish or two about two weeks in to provide some waste materials for the bacteria to work on (a guppy or danio etc.), but I've always gone the fishless way as I find it gives plants time to start growing properly. running the tank with no fish for a month will not achieve a "cycled" tank. there needs to be some source of waste product in order for the bacteria to feed on and multiply. either by adding fish slowly, or adding ammonia. i prefer to use fish, as putting in random amounts of ammonia seems a bit hit and miss. seeing you are only putting two fish in, i would put them in straight away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pink_fish Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 running the tank with no fish for a month will not achieve a "cycled" tank. there needs to be some source of waste product in order for the bacteria to feed on and multiply. either by adding fish slowly, or adding ammonia. I have found that there is enough waste material from the plants & results from water tests I've taken during the fishless month have showed the tanks going through their cycles happily. Once the month is up, I then build up my fish stock levels very slowly. Jaide, dimebag is probably right about just putting your 2 fish in straight away (since it's only 2 ) – just keep an eye on your ammonia and nitrates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaide Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 It's a risk to put new fish in straight away to a newly cycled tank. I'd rather ensure the tank was cycled properly first before adding them. Thanks for all your help everyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 The word cycling relates to the nitrogen cycle ammonia - nitrite - nitrate. The nitrate is picked up by the plants and the cycle is completed when the plant decomposes. Which plants produce ammonia? How can you cycle a tank without ammonia? The reason you think the tank is cycled with plants is because there is no ammonia produced by plants so there is none to measure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoon Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 i would use an internal filter as you may want to increase the stocking levels at a later date and then you wouldnt have to go thru the hassle of cycling again at a later date. a small internal filter will be all that is needed and will be virtually silent (as long as you dont use ane venturi features) with reguards to aeration of a tank stella is rite but however its a common misconception that an air pump is needed , this stems from the earlier days in the hobby where people were encouraged to use them and an undergravel or corner box filter was the best thing out. (still have there uses tho ) gradually more was learnt and somebody figured out that pumping air into ur aquarium does not oxygenate the water however the current created by the moving flow of bubbles exposes more water to the air at the surface allowing more oxygen to dissolve.any form of water movement will also do this.i do not own an air pump ane more . there are just better ways of filtering out there for most tanks and having plants i wanted the least surface disturbance as possible(to keep the CO2 in the water, as dissolved oxygen forces it out ) this can however become a small trade off if i get more fish i may find i need more oxygen and will have to turn the spraybar a few degrees towards the surface to cause more agitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaide Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 i would use an internal filter as you may want to increase the stocking levels at a later date and then you wouldnt have to go thru the hassle of cycling again at a later date. a small internal filter will be all that is needed and will be virtually silent (as long as you dont use ane venturi features) Why would I want to cycle again later? Once it's cycled, it's good to go. I only want a couple of fish in there, I don't want to fill it up - it's only a small tank. Which internal filter do you recommend that's absolutely silent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vindy500 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 2 fish in a 40l tank without filtration will be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Forget the filter and the airpump and put your fish in the tank. They will think it is xmas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaide Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Are you sure Alan? Don't they require some sort of air flow? Otherwise it will just be a heater and plants and that's it. I'm picking up some fish tomorrow night and I'm really worried they'll fall over as soon as their in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I am sure, if you are not the choice is yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I am with Alan, they will be fine. I have had plenty of tanks with no filtration or aeration, just weekly waterchanges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PuffaDragonNZ Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Paradise fish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wok Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 A Trio of Killies would make a lovely addition!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianab Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Have a look at this link, it's a way to set up a planted, unfiltered tank. It wont support as many fish as a conventional tank but you balance the growing plants with the fish numbers. Walstad Method http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Walstad_method So yes it can be done, it's a bit trickier to set up, but no filtering needed. Likewise if a tank is big and only contains a few small fish then it is possible to run with no filters. But personally I would just put in a little internal power filter. I have a very nice Eheim (expensive but good) and a range of small cheapo AquaOnes. All are practically silent, maybe just a bit of a hum. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaide Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Thanks for the help and information everyone I bought 4 baby platties last night and they're in the tank with no filtration and no air flow and have survived their first night :bounce: It's strange seeing them in there with nothing moving around except them but if it works, I'm all for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navarre Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I hope this helps I have a 3 ft tank that I have had set up for about 10 years now. It has a layer of laterite, fine sand and then gravel as a base. It has a heater and a light (used to have CO2 but I put that in something else) and plants Base gravel is about 5-10 cm thick (maybe) I water change it when I remember(maybe a few times a year), feed it a couple of times a week. I NEVER vacum the Gravel It is HEAVILY planted with all sorts of Crypts and has guppies in it by the hundreds. It has no filter. It also has no algae that I can see and I hardly ever clean the glass. It is my homage to the old skool It is about balance Navarre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Navarre for Prime Minister--that boy is on to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Young ones don't seem to realise these filter thingies are a new-fangled invention! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pink_fish Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 The word cycling relates to the nitrogen cycle ammonia - nitrite - nitrate. The nitrate is picked up by the plants and the cycle is completed when the plant decomposes. Which plants produce ammonia? How can you cycle a tank without ammonia? The reason you think the tank is cycled with plants is because there is no ammonia produced by plants so there is none to measure. Thanks for the info, alanmin - that does make sense. I guess I have success because because I do always stock my tanks up very slowly (so I must actually be cycling them once the first couple of fish go in)! I must have read some flawed articles many years ago when I was getting into fish for the first time – I distinctly remember learning about cycling without using fish. I'll probably continue to set up tanks the way I always have as I find that the plants establish themselves better when there are no fish in there for a few weeks first, in any case. Jaide, good luck with your fish tank – keep us posted! I'm off to read more about this cycling business, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 There are SO many flawed articles about fish out there! :evil: :roll: :evil: :evil: :roll: Very annoying. And it takes a LOT of reading to try and sort of what has some actualy truth/science behind it and what is yet another myth. I have certainly been lead astray by, and sadly passed on, much inaccurate information in my time. The GOOD thing with the internet is you are not stuck with one source of info, you have BILLIONS. Read read read read on the one topic until you are sure. In my first week at uni a very wise lecturer told us not to believe a word he said until we had gone out and researched and made sure for ourselves that he was right or not, and understood why. Very very important lesson. Back to cycling, fishless cycling can be done, either hit-and-miss by putting something in to decompose to feed the bacteria, or using controlled amounts of the purest ammonia you can find. I often think fishless cycling articles are not written as thoroughly as is needed to follow them properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 I have a problem with fishless cycling which is not addressed by God's Mother in Law Mrs Google. No one has ever been able to show me the formula that shows how many dead prawns or drops of ammonia is equal to two small fish. Hang in there-- you are doing all the right things for the wrong reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 That's irrelevant. You feed the tank with ammonia until, basically, it can support a huge bioload. Then difference between the real bioload and the capacity dies off harmlessly. But, if you're wanting an idea, one medium severum in 20 liters produces about 2ppm of ammonia(When I put one in a container to treat him overnight) that would be about 0.00004 liters or .04ml I've seen references to a droplet of water being approximately .05ml. So call one medium severum equal to a drop of ammonia per day. Or a small tetra approximately 1/10th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navarre Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Hi Ira drops pr ml or gtts (LOL) depends of the fluid(surface tension I guess) and the nozzle size they are being dropped from. Not all things are created the same Balance slowly acheaved (even if spelt wrong like) is better than balance in a hurry in the long term because we are talking about not having a "opening" in the system to take up the slack (so to speak). The only water movement will be generated by thermoconduction and fishes swimming. Water movement is what aids gaseous exchange at the surface, thats one reason you take water out of the system in a filter and put it back again and why airstones dont contribute that much to oxygenation in the water thermoclines until near the top where the agitation of the surface has been increased. So my advice set your tank up. Plant it, landscape it, heat it, let it settle, add 1 or 2 fish for your enjoyment. forget about the marketing gimicks. enjoy it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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