Hybrid GBA/Common Bristlenose Discussion

[Dixon1990]

Do you not know you are creating hybrids?

And hybrids should NOT be spread round.

Thanks

[FreedingFrenzy]

Surely if someone wanted them it would be fine? I can accept there are purists out there (Heil Hitler?) but everyones gotta love the half casts every now and then.

[HomerandMarge]

Are you serious?? How can the babies be hybrids when the parents are both Simpsons...

[VinsonMassif]

And hybrids should NOT be spread round.

In your opinion.

[Dixon1990]

And many others

[HomerandMarge]

Well you see Dixon, I'm a novice at this fish keeping thing and thought I would come onto this site for a bit of support and learning and to spread my luck around. My fish don't seem to know they are of differing species (and nor did I) and they happily keep each other company and breed. To the untrained eye (mine) they are the same, they simply have different coloured skin/scales. But it doesn't seem to bother them, in fact my visitors celebrate their diversity when viewing my tank. Hybrid, half caste call them what you like, the worlds a little brighter when the bristlenoses are about.

[VinsonMassif]

And many others

And so called popular opinion or belief does not make it Absolute or Law.

[kylefish02]

Bristlenose in nz are not known to be pure neway so it doesnt matter. Bristlenose in nz come under the name Ancistrus sp. (3) so dont get ur undies in a bunch when we already more than likely have hybrids. L144(golden bristlenose) origin is not exactly known either and also could well be a hybrid even tho there is a report of it coming from just normal ancistrus temminck(spelling) and being 1 lutino male fond in the wild and all have beenn bred from him so theyve been crossed with normal coloured Bn and then craossed back to there father etc to eventually only get gba's (this is why it is thought we get the big black marks on some of them). So HomerandMarge have every rite to breed them together as they are not known as there own species.

And well done HomerandMarge

kyle

[HummingBird]

Maybe we do already have hybrids but we shouldn't encourage people making more. Just because fish can breed with each other doesn't mean we should facilitate it, it wouldn't usually happen in the wild (otherwise they wouldn't be different species!). There are at least 59 different species of Ancistrus, some may look like "they are the same" to some people but they're not.

I've had many discussions with catfish lovers about this, and sure, some ignorant people do it, but that doesn't mean we should accept it or not try and stop them when we do find out about it. If enough people do it there won't be any of the original of either species left.

[my4age]

Do you not know you are creating hybrids?

And hybrids should NOT be spread round.

Thanks

i do think this comment is a bit harsh and it's not cool to crucify someone who is wanting to help out (my opinion), and also appreciate HummingBird and cichlid7 standing up for their opinion with reasoning.

I am not trying to offend catfish lovers out there, but with the special case of bristle nose, there are some fish keepers out there that are not intending to breed them. A bristlenose is just there to act as the clean up crew. HomerandMarge has clearly state that these fish come from a golden and normal bristlenose parents, so i think 'many other' 'un-ignorant' fish keepers out there is aware of this when selecting the fish they want to breed.

HomerandMarge, good on you spreading the love around and being honest about the parents of the fish.

[Dixon1990]

Just My Opinion- But it would be better for the hobby if these hybrid offspring were not used for breeding

[Leviathan]

Well i am a hobbist

i dont want them for breeding

i am just aksing, if you put 5 or so brothers and sisters in one tank, when they grow up will they breed?

(As i dont fancy lots of babies!)

But i have no idea what species inbreed

[Dougstark]

Leviathan Yes they will breed. I think it is a bit harsh attacking people who breed mixed bristlenose's as most people would not know they are different species ( if in fact they are ). The target you should be aiming for are the pet shop owners who sell them to us uneducated public. The first time I heard about it was recently on this forum. I have had fish on and off for thirty years and have never been told by a pet shop owner. Many petshops by fish from locals and I would not be surprised if there are many hybrids in circulation.

[Dixon1990]

Most fish will breed with their brothers and sisters, And theres nothing wrong with it, unless you are getting Deformalities or weak fish, also you cant do it for too many generations

[Fenriswolf]

Hell, I agree that hybrids are less than desirable but it's pretty unavoidable... BNs aren't sexable when they're little, it's nice having a golden and normal/black, your average fish owner doesn't think about it then bam! Babies.

It's actually annoying me slightly because I like the look of a black boy (which I have) and a golden girl (which I'd like) but I'm probably just gonna get a couple more normal ones - black isn't a different species from normal like the GBA is it??

Sorry to add to the threadjack, good luck finding homes

[Dixon1990]

Normal BN are a different species to GBA

And I do realise that it sometime cannot be avoided, and i agree it does look nice have both in the same tank. And there isnt really anything wrong with the Keeping of both species in the same tank unless your selling them to Beginners without much knowledge or Shops.

My last Say

[SpidersWeb]

Split this thread to Freshwater.

Interesting discussion, but really can't have it in the PT&E section!

[Aaron-Betta]

The seller was honest about the parentage of the offspring for sale, it is then up to the buyer wether they want to buy them or not. After all, not everyone is out there to breed fish, maybe someone just wants a clean-up team for their tank.

[melrick1]

As the GBA’s are infact the same as the common bristlenose there shouldn’t be a problem. The GBA is genetically the same as the common just without the dark pigment gene. Is like albinism except albinos are missing all pigment genes not just the dark ones.

They will either come out one or the other, the only disadvantage is that the GBA is worth a lot more than the common and you will probably only get one ore none from each spawning.

This mixing could infact be a good thing as common bristlenose have been so commercialized that their genes have become very weak.

[cichlid7]

no they don't always come out one or the other.

[SpidersWeb]

Yeah most of the time they do, but I have seen GBAs with dark sections, like patches that aren't solid black but not gold either.

Accidental breedings will always occur. What is more important is that pure strains are maintained by members, so a pure strain is always available to enthusiasts.

The GBA is the same fish as a common bristlenose, and I'm not even sure that they occur naturally either. They're a different species by definition from a scientific point of view because their colour is much different, but its still the same fish underneath, they don't even have a full latin name yet, just Ancistrus sp.. IMO breeding GBA with commons is no worse than breeding a white angelfish with a silver, or a silver with a black.

GBAs are weaker than common bristlenose, so my concern would be that it'd likely weaken the common bristlenose strain BUT would strengthen the GBA strain (not always, but the possibilities are there).

I've only had one hybrid batch (was an honest accident), but if people choose to mix, I'm ok with it as long as anyone aquiring the fish knows they're hybrids, and the price is lower.

[David R]

Here's my $0.02 on the subject...

New Zealand is a small country with limited a limited gene pool and a very tight border. Out best hope for having quality fish is local breeders (who are more than just newbie hobbyists, no offense anyone!) who will breed for certain traits rather than just indiscriminately with two random fish from the LFS.

Weather you believe we all evolved from apes, or that we were magically created in 6 days, you cannot dispute natural selection/survival of the fittest. In nature, the weak are culled by predators and other factors before they can breed. So a species is constantly being shaped and improved by the environment it lives in, with the individuals most suited to their habitat being the most prolific breeders.

Obviously this doesn't happen in the aquarium. To ensure species are not only kept pure, but also kept healthy, strong and free of defects in very important. Essentially, we need to 'play god' and carry out the task of natural selection.

With easy to breed species like convicts, kribs, bristlenose etc people don't go to the lengths required to ensure their breeding stock is the biggest, most colourful or most bristly, and so the offspring are less likely to carry the good genes. And when somebody randomly/unintentionally breeds those offspring the cycle continues, essentially undoing all the years of hard work put in by mother nature to refine that species. Reverse natural selection.

IMO, if you are not prepared to select the best parents (for desirable traits and how related they are) then you should not be breeding fish. (to sell, at the very least).

If you are not prepared to cull the weaker, less colourful, or defective offspring (either by euthanising with clove oil, or feeding to other fish) then you should not be breeding fish.

If you are not concerned with the long-term genetic well-being of the species and producing the best possible young, then you should not be breeding fish. You should instead be supporting those who do make the effort.

IMO, people who breed fish for the sake of making money (especially when they don't need it to put food on their table) and sell every last fry produced to cash in on their success are irresponsible and have no place in the hobby. I think frontosa could be a good example of this. They're new[ish] and there's a heap of people willing to pay money for them. People aren't likely to want to cull the slightly defective or runty fry as they know they can still get dollars for them, regardless of what this will mean if that person goes on to breed them. [bTW I'm not targeting anyone with this rant, just expressing my thoughts].

I'm worried about what could happen to Sajica's if they are indiscriminately bred for generations (like convicts) with no regard for keeping the stock as big, strong and colourful as possible. When I do sell mine I will only supply shops/tardme with males, and the majority of females will be culled or sold to people with the right intentions for breeding them.

Anyway. I know not everyone is as concerned and/or passionate [crazy?] as me, and obviously there is no way to regulate or control who breeds what, and how. IMO it is highly likely that in years to come it will end up like cats and dogs with good [registered?] breeders selling purebreds/quality fish to people who do care and are willing to pay for having the best, and regular joe's selling the equivalent of mutts/domestic cats to other joe's who don't care and just want some pretty fish.

As long as we have some passionate breeders breeding the good species well and producing the best quality fish then the hobby will survive. As people who care enough to bother signing up to a forum to discuss their hobby, I urge you all to think about the long-term effects of breeding, and think about where your fish come from and support those who make the effort rather than going for the lowest price.

[morfin]

Hi David R - this is what it is all about you are right - making informed decisions for what you do and where. And I agree with you that some people go for the breeding and some don't, we have two pure breed cocker spaniels straight from the breeders simply because we know what we are getting. I guess the point is that as long as the decisions are informed then that is fine.

My query is what happens when you buy your fish from the LFS - you may have all the best intentions in the world, in that you are getting two 'normals' or two 'gba' but you don't actually know that these aren't 'hybrids'. And I for one when I first entered into fishkeeping didn't even know about forums and buying fish from breeders so when you first set up you go to your fish store and buy your fish. You think you are doing the right thing by breeding two the same but in fact end up with some gba. In that instance what do you do?

There was also discussion about brothers and sisters breeding - is this best for the species as well or should this not occur, in which case you are better not to buy two or more from the same lot. And these are honest questions which I find confusing around this whole debate.

[cichlid7]

A few people breed brother and sisters to form a pure colour/strain/line as when people crossbreed fish to make pretty fish for their own pleasure. then spread them around and we get weak fish.

then very experienced breeders need to get the back to the pure colour because we have run out of pure one and we are just left with mixes.

one breeder might have on batch of fry which are very close to the pure colour so you pick the best ones from that lot then breed them, then pick the best lot from the fry, then breed them etc.......

Which is very time consuming and not easy to do.

Hope that makes sence :lol:

[FreedingFrenzy]

Completely off topic I know but I've been thinking - Do BN's like need a cave? Cause mine have a big log to hide under/in but I don't know if it's enough... Would it be a good idea to make a cave?

Anyway, enough of the tangent...