TANK BUILD: Native Riffle (fast flowing) Tank

[pogona1]

Im sorry but that is not an excuse. If anything that simply shows that she should know better. Not to mention that the way she is keeping them is amateurish at best.

Why people dont apply the same regard to endangered fish as they do to other animals I cant work out. I have an interest in reptiles and would like to write a book on their captive care. This doesnt mean that I would help myself to some tuatara if I found them.

I must admit that I have little experience with keeping these fish but know many who do. To keep a fish a special as these in a community tank that is not chilled and claim that this is legitimate research is insulting. These fish should be kept at no more than 18 degrees max. They are from a genus that is notorious for doing poorly in captivity. I know people who have years experience with natives who wouldnt dream of touching a short jawed kokopu.

From what I understand the book being written is about natives as aquarium fish. As I have mentioned several times this is an endangered species. This is one of the only fish species listed in the red data book. This fish should not under any circumstances be considered as an aquarium fish.

Please follow the following link from the NZ fresh water societies web page.

http://www.nzfreshwater.org/index_aquaria.html

From what I can see these people in the society are hypocrites. They have gone against their constitution and have collected 2 species from the Manawatu area that they state should not be touched. Are these people genuine about protecting native species, or are they simply a collection of aquarium hobbyists? I have never heard of people from Forrest and Bird finding rare and endangered species and taking them home to put in with the budgies. Nor would anyone from the Herpetological society touch an endangered reptile without a permit.

Lastly I would like to point out that despite your approval as amateur hobbyists it would seem that a law has been broken after reading the above page. If she has obtained a permit then I stand corrected but stand by my above statements.

Are the people on this forum more interested in simply having pets, or do they have a genuine interest in the conservation of fish species?

[robbert]

Well after reading the website you provided pogona1 i saw

These species should only be collected from the wild if they are to be used for demonstration purposes e.g. public displays to the end of increased public knowledge, or for research

so she is using them for research and to increase public knowledge so

it would seem that a law has been broken after reading the above page

what law then did you read the page?

[pogona1]

This is a joke.

To quote - Note bold

"PROTECTED SPECIES

Species that fall in to this category are just that; simply those that are either legally protected or carry a Department of Conservation (DoC) rating of Category C or higher (Molloy & Davis, 1992; Tisdall, 1994).

These species generally include the following fishes;

Category (A): Shortjawed kokopu Galaxias postvectis), Spotted mudfish (Galaxias sp. aff. diversus)

Category (B): Giant kokopu (Galaxias argenteus), Dwarf inanga (Galaxias gracilis), Brown mudfish (Neochanna apoda), Canterbury mudfish (Neochanna burrowsius)

Category ©: Black mudfish (Neochanna diversus), Banded kokopu (Galaxias fasciatus), Koaro (Galaxias brevipinnis), Longjawed galaxias (Galaxias prognathus), Tarndale bully (Gobiomorphus alpinus)

These species should only be collected from the wild if they are to be used for demonstration purposes e.g. public displays to the end of increased public knowledge, or for research. Legally, any collectors of these species are also on shaky ground; as they should be! Most of us wouldn’t dream of taking a kokako or takahe from the wild; why then do we make excuses for ourselves when we simply want to possess a rare fish as a novelty 'pet' or conversation piece? "

Taken directly from website. Given that stella is writting abook on natives as pets this would also go against the above. I reiterate - THIS IS NOT A SPECIES THAT SHOULD EVER BE A PET.

[HaNs]

I assure you this is no joke.

Note bold

These species should only be collected from the wild if they are to be used for demonstration purposes e.g. public displays to the end of increased public knowledge, or for research.

She is doing all 3. She has done displays, increased public knowledge on these fish and how important they are and she is currently finishing her book.

How can she be more professional as you claim that she is amateurish?

She has installed cooling in a room JUST for the fish

As i understand she has permits for the mud fish and she is working with a university

So whats the issue?

[Stella]

Bear in mind that if I was a whitebaiter I could, with full endorsement of the law and policed by DOC, take hundreds of juvenile shortjaw, giant and banded kokopu (depending on location) from the wild, asphyxiate them slowly and then cook and eat them.

There is no law preventing anyone from taking native fish from the wild, keeping them alive in aquaria, eating them, feeding them to the dog etc. There are many laws restricting taking them from certain places, putting them back, farming them etc. Not one native fish is legally 'protected' apart from the extinct grayling.

The laws are pretty complex and currently under review. You will also see on this forum I am often pointing out what the legalities are regarding native fish as there is much confusion and the legal position needs to be understood by anyone interested in them. It took a lot of effort and help from DOC's legal department to get the guidelines correct for my book, I do know what I am talking about here.

That is merely the law, ethics are a similar but different consideration. While legally I could keep Canterbury mudfish, ethically I wouldn't go near them. Same with taking banded kokopu from the Manawatu district, but I would from Auckland.

Yes, I am writing a book on keeping native fish in captivity and it focuses very strongly on the ethics and conservation aspects. I have consulted with a number of different freshwater ecology scientists and others about which species are appropriate and the wider ethical issues. I have only included species they approved of. The book deliberately does *not* cover shortjaw or giant kokopu, non-diadromous galaxiids or several mudfish species (and actively says don't touch canterbury mudfish) due to conservation concerns.

Shortjaw kokopu are no longer officially in the ‘threatened’ category. The site you quote is from 1994 and is very much out of date on several species. Their classification has ‘improved’ thanks to the work of Massey Uni freshwater ecologist Dr Mike Joy. He worked out what habitats they are in and found the population is actually much larger and healthier than previous data had shown. When I caught the shortjaws I thought they were a different species, the official description was quite different and now I see it relates to juveniles much bigger than mine. When I realised what they were I explained what had happened to Mike and asked if I should return them. He had no problem with me keeping them.

(You will notice on another thread when I was leading a trip to see a few rare species someone argued against taking them. It is there in the archives that I said we were not due to conservation concerns and that I would not be comfortable with anyone taking them. I can't remember my exact words.)

I usually only take juveniles of any species, it is less potentially damaging to the local population as well as juveniles adapt much easier. The shortjaws in question are several years off becoming sexually mature, so I was not removing breeding stock. As an update on the fish themselves, they settled in remarkably quickly and have put on a lot of size in the four months I have had them.

I am not a member of the NZ Native Freshwater Fish Society, you are really leaping to conclusions here! It is in recess, has been for a number of years. The ex-president is trying to get me to re-start it but I sadly don’t have the time.

It was not a National Park. It was from private farm land bordering a pine forest/recreational area. The landowner was in the process of bulldozing a new track, pushing a lot of soil into the stream. That sort of prolonged turbidity and general habitat destruction is incredibly damaging to the entire stream ecosystem and was very sad to see and seems to frequently happen in this area. It was also full of trout, which predate on native fish and compete with them for food. The population is healthy but the habitat is being badly treated.

I do not think it is a fair comparison relating me taking three fish from the wild for my own aquarium to buying animals illegally from dealers. Participating in illegal trading is a totally different issue.

The permit to return fish to where they originally came from is obtainable from the Ministry of Fisheries. The reason for this law was the accidental introduction of whirling disease which affects the introduced salmonids. The disease risk towards or from native fish is remote, but the law covers all species.

I am not just a private person having them only for my private entertainment. I am also trying to ‘spread the word’ that they exist and make people more aware of the issues surrounding them. This weekend I am taking a trip for the local Forest and Bird Society spotlighting in a stream, them visiting my tanks after. Two FNZAS clubs are visiting me the weekend after that. I have also done a public live display and other educational field trips. This is just the start. I hope to turn this into a career somehow. Being able to see live examples is so much more accessible for most people. For too long they have been out of sight out of mind.

I am fully transparent. You will see in my online gallery (linked in the sig below) my full name, photograph, location and all the authorities need to be able to find and question me should they suspect anything unlawful or otherwise dodgy going on. It isn’t.

Amateurish? Are you just trying to be offensive now? Firstly, I am not a professional fishkeeper, therefore technically it is amateurish. Secondly I have had people tell me that my tanks look far better than any native tanks you pay to visit that they have seen (which covers most of them). Massey university has asked me to try breeding brown mudfish (category B on your site, and which was approved for inclusion in the book by the top mudfish experts) in aquaria for them and they are paying for the costs. I bought an air conditioning system purely for the fish last summer.

Amateur? Technically.

Poor quality? Little understanding or attention to the fishes' requirements? Definitely not.

Current riffle tank temperature: 16.5 degrees.

I can assure you that I don’t take fish indiscriminately from the wild. A hell of a lot of thought, *particularly* on the ethical side of things, has gone into my involvement with native freshwater fish, and continues to do so.

I am highly offended by your tirade but obviously you prefer to leap to fairly extreme conclusions than to find out what you are talking about.

I have no expectation that I will change you mind, nor should you have any hope that you will change mine.

[Afrikan]

So what about Banded Kokopu and Giant Kokupu that are legally farmed and sold on to LFS.... is there a problem there?

Not sure why Stella couldn't have been approached via PM tho with your concerns, and possibly discussed with her before fingers pointed at her across her thread tho..

[pogona1]

Somehow I dont think a permit for mudfish covers a short jawed kokopu.

I mean I have a permit to keep common geckos, but it doesnt mean that I am going to try and keep tautara on it.

The display is in a private home. Again I say that I dont think the research being done here is a good enough excuse. There are plenty of common species that are much more suitable to write about. As a member of a conservation society there is a responsibilty to ensure this species stays where it belongs and not in the home aquarium.

I do not mean to condescend, but keeping these fish in a 23 degree tank with many other species is amateurish.

[Fenriswolf]

You do mean to condescend, or you would not have responded how you did. Stella has pointed out in rebuttal to your original post that:

(a) Shortjaw kokopu are no longer in the "threatened" category and your reference is 13 years out of date.

(b) She did not intentionally catch them, but when she realised what she had, "professional" (that it, not amateur) freshwater ecologist Dr Mike Joy whether she would be best to return them but due to the population being much larger and healthier than previous data had shown, he saw no problem with her keeping them

© The tank is no longer 23 deg, it is 16.5. Permits for mudfish notwithstanding, she has been asked to assist in breeding programmes by Massey University. Amateur? Sure. "Ameteurish"? Not so much.

Your first post was fair enough, your second just a cheap shot :evil:

[HaNs]

pogona1

So what about Banded Kokopu and Giant Kokupu that are legally farmed and sold on to LFS.... is there a problem there?

[Stella]

Somehow I dont think a permit for mudfish covers a short jawed kokopu.

Again jumping to conclusions. I do not have a permit for mudfish and I am not presuming it to cover shortjaws.

No one needs a permit to keep any native fish.

The display is in a private home.

Indeed it is. And that private home is open to those coming on the Forest and Bird trip this weekend. It is open to the FNZAS members coming next weekend. It is open to anyone who wants to sit through me telling them all about the wonders of native fish!

There are plenty of common species that are much more suitable to write about.

And the common species are all right there in the book. With the appropriate stress that they are more ethical and easier to keep.

.

As a member of a conservation society there is a responsibilty to ensure this species stays where it belongs and not in the home aquarium.

Are you still assuming that I am a member of the NZ Freshwater Fish Society?

Or maybe now Forest and Bird? I am also on the local branch committee. We have a responsibility to educate, inspire and be actively involved in conservation. Those that know what I have been doing on the committee with regard to native fish would say I do all that. Suddenly native fish are in the local branches' conciousness thanks to my efforts. I don't say that lightly either.

I do not mean to condescend, but keeping these fish in a 23 degree tank with many other species is amateurish.

Almost all the fish came from the same 10 metre area of stream. The temperature issue has been sorted, as I said, current aquarium temperature is 16.5 degrees. Mere teething issue. And bear in mind that there is almost NO information out there on how to keep native fish. Only very short pieces of information that barely scratches the surface. I have had to work it all out for myself (as others have done individually) and I am now making that information available to the public. I have made mistakes, have you not?

You are being condecending. You will notice that this forum is to help people and share knowledge, not put down their efforts with such vehemence, disdain and total lack of understanding or knowledge of what you are talking about.

[pogona1]

I am sorry the last post was written in reply to Hans at 7:56 before i had a chance to read your reply.

You make some valid points and a apologise for the mistakes I made in my previous posts. I was more annoyed with the replies that were being received.

As I said earlier I know you have good intentions and that this was probably a mistake. I still stand by my statement though that these fish do not belong in home aquaria. I think there should be a permit sytem with native fish as there are with most other native animals, but they unfortunatly mostly go ignored (I do accept the irony that this is what you are trying to reslove yourself).

I stand by my statement that these do not belong in a community tank. I appreciate that this makes for an impressive display, but fish as valuable as these need to be treated as such.

I would also like to point out that gaint and banded kokopu are not actually being captive bred. The young are being raised from whitebait.

[Afrikan]

Oh I was at the understanding that they were being bred commercially, where my husband works, they have had banded and giants in sent from Mahurangi Institute of Tech...

Try this...

http://www.nzaquaculture.co.nz/AQUACULTURE%2006.pdf

[Stella]

It sounds weird, but I do agree to an extent about the shortjaws.

They are the most threatened species I have, but I know how to look after them and Mike says there is nothing wrong with keeping them. He probably knows more about their population status than anyone.

One might even argue that it is more ethical to keep shortjaws than other more common species who don't adjust to captivity with such ease. Then again I would not encourage just anyone to keep them. It is an ongoing mental debate in my head, constantly reevaluating, but I believe what I am doing is ok.

I treat all my fish as valuable. No one individual life is more valuable to me simply because they are less common than another species. I have a responsibility to that life.

With the 'captive bred whitebait'...

Charles Mitchell in Raglan is trying to 'farm' whitebait. He has some evidence that suggests whitebait return to the rivers in which they were spawned. Others disagree. Certainly he is seeing more and more whitebait go to his farm each year. Search on his name, there are many interesting articles on what he is doing. I have visited him and he is a very interesting man. My giant and banded kokopu came from him.

Not sure about Mahurangi, I have contact with them too. Interesting things happening there! A couple of months ago I helped them catch upland bullies for breeding stock for the aquarium trade. They are trying to get the law changed so they can legally farm native fish. Legally they can catch 'wild' whitebait, grow them up and sell them, and there is a loophole allowing the same for other fish, but they want to see them farmed and sold so the wild stocks are not affected. I would much rather have sustainably farmed fish any day and am fully in support of them.

I know they have dealings with Charles Mitchell, so maybe he sends them kokopu whitebait for them to grow up for sale.

[enzoom1]

I think Stella's doing an awesome job at housing the New Zealand natives (better than anything I could probably do :oops: ) and I look forward to reading her book

[A-town...]

I think Stella's doing an awesome job at housing the New Zealand natives (better than anything I could probably do :oops: ) and I look forward to reading her book

agree!

[Dixon1990]

agree!

Mee too

[spoon]

Mee too

me three

[Ianab]

Between introduced trout, farming and road building, whitebaiting and loss of breeding territory around river mouths, I dont think collecting a few for private study or just as a 'pet' is going to cause any harm.

Realistically everyone on this forum could go and catch a couple and it would do less harm then extending a motorway and filling in a swamp or releasing a truckload of trout. And a good whitebait fritter takes about 100 fish!!!

As most of NZ isn't even aware these fish exist their protection will allways be on the backburner. Takahe, Tuatara and Yellow Eye Penguins seem to have much better PR setup and get all the TV time. The more people know about the existance of these fish, the better, and if that has to be done by keen 'amatures' then so be it. DOC seems to have very little resources to devote to them.

Keep up the good work Stella.

Ian

[preacher]

I love telling people about my night time fishing trips down the river.

It is a wonderful opportunity to tell them about native fish, and the stupidity of laws that allow me to be prosecuted for taking a trout, but yet I could take all the native fish I want and walk away.....

It is so stupid that any other species of creature, from insect to bird is protected but not your beautiful native aquatics.

Peter

Upper Hutt

[Simian]

The Waikato Aquarium society was lucky enough to have Charles Mitchell come along to our meeting this month at the Hamilton Zoo, I can confirm he has captive bred giant Kokopu amongst other "impossible to breed natives".

Charles is expecting another new batch early this month, should his predictions prove to be accurate.

As the Waikato aquarium society has been asked to set up displays of native fish for the zoo, Stella's work will be invaluable to us and to future generations, I welcome and encourage her (already kindly offered) input into our endeavours to educate the public on our natives.

Owen Lingard

Vice President

Waikato Aquarium Society

[enzoom1]

This is kind of off topic but I was reading through NZ's latest issue out of AAM (Australian Aquarium Magazine) and it had an article in the New Zealand features section about Giant Kokopu in the Aquarium.

The article was written by David Cooper and I found it was a pretty good read.

It explains how to keep them in the aquarium e.g. water hardness, pH and temperature.

It also says that Giant Kokopu have been exported in Canada to be assessed as ornamental fish. If all goes well, sometime during 2008 large quantities of the captive-bred kokopu would be exported.

Is exporting large amounts of native fish better compared to just keeping a few in the home aquaria?

lol it also mentions Charles Mitchell so thats what made me think of it :lol:

[Afrikan]

I can confirm he has captive bred giant Kokopu amongst other "impossible to breed natives".

Yes you are right Simian... Hubby had a meeting and was just speaking to a guy from Mahurangi Institute yesterday and I asked hubby to confirm that fact. And apparently the Kokopu are milked, and the young produced are raised to a good juv size and released into the estuarys on or near his property. And it now shows that the Kokopu numbers have gone up due to the fact that these fish return to the same estuary. The Kokopu of Charles is actually breeding stock.

[livingart]

having kept native fish and inverts for over 20 years, i think Stella is doing a marvellous job and doing something that has needed to be done for a long time with native fish, a book on the keeping of them.

i have lost a few through trial and error, but this is where all of todays knowledge on preserving animals and their habitats has come from

when you have spent time perfecting a way of sorting out the juvenile shortjaws from the rest of the whitebait catch in nz and gotten the law changed to outlaw whitebaiting in general, eradicated all the introduced fish that predate on our native fish, or spent as much time on research or raised the profile of native fish as Stella has then maybe you can point a crooked finger in her general direction

always remember when pointing a finger that there are 3 other fingers pointing back at you

Don Merton was an "amateur" who saved the black robin from extinvtion

[Caper]

Is it on youtube yet Stella...quite anxious to see it and them (fishies)

Caper

[Dougstark]

I love telling people about my night time fishing trips down the river.

It is a wonderful opportunity to tell them about native fish, and the stupidity of laws that allow me to be prosecuted for taking a trout, but yet I could take all the native fish I want and walk away.....

It is so stupid that any other species of creature, from insect to bird is protected but not your beautiful native aquatics.

Peter

Upper Hutt

You sure you want to say this. They may see it and decide to add it to their list of protected wildlife so that you cant keep them.