wasp

Layton, my post re the bacteria dosing, other than your following post where you pulled each sentence apart, just wondered if you thought it made any sense?

I think you may have missed part of the plot. zeovit has dropped the nutrients. How old is the tank? something around a year or so.

No I didn't. But just cos I didn't know does not mean I'm automatically going to say you're wrong, and then not proove it, as you constantly do to me. You may be correct, I wouldn't know.

Good point, those may be undetectable in both the NSW and the tank, but nonetheless I suspect they will be higher in the NSW, even though below the detection threshhold

Actually Fay I was going to contact you, a recent experience I had has convinced me more than ever that your high nutrients are related to overfeeding. Here's what happened to me:- When I went zeovit, the tank, which had been green and infested with hair algae, cleaned up in a few weeks. Zero algae, flatworms dissappeared, tank looking real crisp. Then around 3 weeks ago my son (well meaning) came home with a copperband butterfly fish. My heart sank when I saw it, because it was pretty skinny. Put it in the tank and my suspicions where confirmed, it would not eat. So - spent the next ten days or so dumping major quantities of dirty stuff like mysis, brine, and whatever, into the tank, so much that the fish could not eat it, so there would be some floating around to tempt the copperband. Did this several times daily. the reason I was prepared to dump all this in the tank was overconfidence. The tank just looked so clean I didn't think anything could hurt it. Anyhow, the butterfly eventually died. However, a few days later cyano appeared, and then I saw hair algae starting to sprout, and even found some tiny flatworms, they must have been there all the time, in shrivelled up form. So, even with zeovit, I was just asking too much of the system, more than it could cope with. Have now gone back to normal feeding, and the tank is slowly cleaning up. The moral of the story is that even with zeovit, it can only do so much. If more than that is asked, it won't work.

To be honest, I'm not sure but I know your meant to do quite a lot. Guess I'm just lazy.

Did you think I said I did a 20% waterchange in an hour? you must have misunderstood. check the post again. Don't recall seeing tissue recession due to a waterchange, but as you know I've never had tissue recession anyway. Don't suddenly drop Po4 and No3, because I use NSW, it probably increases Po4 and No3 when I do a change. You say"I am quite capable of prooving this is wrong". Please don't tell me this any more, actually do it. If you can offer proof, I am happy to accept. You'll find that upon presentation of sound evidence, I become a very reasonable guy It's the unsubstantiated rubbish I have a problem with.

Layton, one of your issues is with the idea that zeovit bacteria should be dosed to an already cycled tank. Now I don't know why Pohl believes this should be done, other than his claim it is to maintain bacterial diversity and the correct "chain" of bacteria. However, I have a theory that may satisfy you. Lets say your own idea is correct, that zeovit employs the use of metal eating bacteria. Now I don't know what bacteria are in zeobac, but let's say these metal eating bacteria are included in the mix. As I assume you are aware, some of these metal eating bacteria are obligate chemolitotrophs, and as such are very vulnerable to being wiped from the bacterial flora in the tank by a temporay chemical shift such as may often happen in an average tank. If this is the case, it would make perfect sense to re-dose periodically. I believe this reason, or something similar, would explain the benefit of dosing zeobac. Personally I have never believed that allowing the bacterial flora in a tank to become a monoculture is a good thing.

I don't really have a set routine. I replace what I syphon, and sometimes my skimmer will go nuts and poke out a few gallons, so I'll replace that. I don't do monthly water changes as such, although I suppose I should. So at best I'd do maybe 20% per month, but it would normally be much lower, I may even go several months with no water change. Why do you ask?

I don't have any proof for that for you. Thomas Pohl has stated that those things will apply in a zeovit system, but of course Layton you are not going to take his word are you :lol: Where I ask you to proove some of what you say is where you follow every post I make on the zeovit thread and say everything I said is wrong. I just thought it would be courtesy where you are saying I'm wrong, to back it up with some proof. Just so others could be assured you weren't mistaken or anything. If I outright told someone they were wrong, as you have to me dozens of times, I would certainly be prepared to proove it. If I could not, I would not be ignorant enough to tell the person they are wrong in the first place.

Sheesh Layton, I've already given it some thought. I cannot think of any evidence at all that the system does not work as claimed. I've seen theories and unsubstantiated claims, but no proof. The nearest I've seen to proof is when a gram stain was done and no bacteria were found. But since then further work has been done and bacteria were found, as per the manufacturers claims. The bottom line, using this is an example, is that if it was prooved there were no bacteria, then I would accept the manufacturers claims are false. But none of his claims have been disprooved, I can't just throw the system out the window because you mention Darwin or whatever. Proof would do it though, ie, show there is no bacteria in zeobac, or something like that. But vague theories and mention of "logic" just don't cut it.

Well I didn't say that, I think you are someone who knows, because you know, because you know. Who of us should question that or ask for proof?

Fact is, you don't know what they are, and you don't know what they aren't either. And mentioning Darwinian theory again prooves - well zip.

I see. Well, the truth comes out.

Don't just keep saying "wrong" Anybody can do that. PROOVE IT

Yikes! You just did it AGAIN!!!!! Look what you just said! You said 'But I "know" that they are not those presented by the manufacturer" Please - What do I have to do to get you to proove anything you say? If you "know" it, proove it. If you have no evidence, you in fact don't know it.

I think your last sentence is the rub. I do have respect for your theory, and the degree of thought you must have put into it. But having said that, your theory is just that, a theory. Unproven. One of many. If by some chance your theory is wrong, all your other statements about why zeovit doesn't work as claimed, will also fall down, because you offer no evidence for what you say. That's why I regard your arguments as weak and unproven. However, anyone is welcome to have a theory.

I see nothing in your last couple of posts to substantiate this. Unproven conjecture, plenty, but actual EVIDENCE, none, as usual.

Layton you are still doing it. You continue to make wild claims and misinformation with no proof. Here is a clasic example - Please enlighten us. Specifically which claims are an outright impossibilty? It would make me real happy if you could take your own advice as follows:-

Well I got to update the information on this, a while back doubt was cast on wether the zeovit manufacturers claims were true, as regards to the contents of one of the ingredients, called Zeobac. We then immediately had some people accepting these claims as "fact", and coming out with some bizzare theories as to the "real" way zeovit works, and the usual "snake oil" claims etc. The group psychology then swung in and I even started to have doubts myself! Anyhow, further work has been done, and it now turns out that zeobac in fact does contain a bacteria culture, of several different types, exactly as claimed by the manufacturer. My faith in the manufacturer has been restored, and for anyone interested here is the link http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... ost4260588

Great Pics. Wish I had the skill to get pics like that!

If you get it when the surfs up, it's going to be dirty. Need to collect when the water is dead flat with an offshore wind, and the water is crystal clear, so it's unlikely to be something you can combine with surfing. What is best, natural sea water (NSW) or artificial sea water (ASW)? Well you've opened a whole can of worms there buddy, there's a ton of debate about it! However IMO ONLY, so I don't get flamed, NSW can be OK if collected when conditions are perfect.

Yes it will work, but get a small one. Nemo and Dory, right?

Once a day

Problem I had leaving it in the tank was got a bit of calcification & scratched the glass. Still leave it there though, just take it out and soak in vinegar occasionally.