smidey Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 the ply is only on the ends which i don't think is enough as there is a great length between them. It is a very simple and costless task to add in 3 braces which will mean there is no chance of there being an issue so i cannot see why someone wouldn't do that and prefer to reply on a few screws and 7mm ply to hold it square. this set up will be pushing 2 ton once aquascaped and filters are running so it's probably a fair amount more than parking a car in the office as it has the footprint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Looks to me like there is ply attached to the ends and to the front and back as well? I know it will be a heavy tank, but in anything other than extraordinary circumstances all that weight should be transferred through the legs to the floor and the bracing doesn't actually do anything. It is only when the tank is subject to side-to-side motion that the bracing is required, and although I'm no engineer or physicist I would suspect that the force required to cause the screws to sheer off and/or the ply to break would only occur during something extreme like a massive earthquake, which may or may not be an issue depending on the posters location. My old 5x2x2' was on a 4x2 timber stand with only six legs and no diagonal bracing (but a more rigid interlocking design rather than just ends screwed together), and that was on a timber floor that would wobble as you walked past the stand! I understand why people opt for the "always over-engineer" approach, but you have to draw the line somewhere. This discussion is getting sidetracked from the point of the thread, diagonal bracing could be cheap piece of mind, or unnecessary cost, weight and clutter in the stand depending on how you look at it. Up to you really... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smidey Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 well either you don't understand in which direction 7mm ply is strong or you misunderstand the diagonal brace function from front to back. ply is strong on its edge vertically but laying it horizontally it is flexible enough to curve the face and make a skateboard ramp out of it. i think he needs to brace the stand so the stand wont distort/lean forwards or backwards which only the end ply panels will offer bracing so the middle part of the stand needs so strength. the panels on the back and front offer very little strength in that direction, they will offer bracing if the tank moves towards either end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hovmoller Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Smidey I think I understand your concern about there being a great distance between the two end shear bracing panels (the ply) but you have to remember also that there is also ply on top that acts as shear bracing to prevent the middle from buckling out.. I completely stand by my first statement that this stand will be more than fine. Having just looked at that picture again I would like to ask jasonnz: The ply looks to be fixed with very few fixings? looks like 1 per side!!!!!!! Could you tell us how many fixings are used to fasten the ply? (at what centers) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smidey Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 the diagonal brace prevents the top moving forward or back while the bottom remains in the same place so it is no longer a square but becomes a parallelogram and as it moves further the joins will fail and the tank will crash down. it isn't about the uprights moving in or out, it's about the tank which is very high tilting a little and making the top move. it's about horizontal loads. here is a short youtube showing what i mean. as above the ends may be ok with 7mm ply but i wouldn't trust them to hold 2 ton and the centre part of the stand has nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 I'm not misunderstanding anything. Yes there is no diagonal bracing in the centre of the stand, but IMO the structure itself is rigid enough to transfer the rigidity offered by the bracing on the ends right throughout. The the big glass box sitting on top of it is also very rigid and will/should only be putting even presure downwards over the entire area of the stand. And if a sideways motion should cause the the stand to flex the force will be right across the stand, unless the tank breaks it simply cannot put more sideways pressure on the centre of the stand than on the ends. Yes if you really wanted to you could ad a diagonal brace running from the front-top to the back-bottom but IMO it simply isn't necessary given the sturdy nature of the timber framing and the end braces. I'll be interested to hear Warrens thoughts on the subject. I've seen the stand he built for his old ~1200L tank (that Henward bought then sold) to survive a big Hawkes Bay earthquake. Now that thing was seriously over-engineered!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuri08 Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 anywasy what a great thread mate will look forward to seing it all set up.ive only ever seen tanks this size with big fish in it so a planted community will look great.you could change your mind and go africans so much better :slfg: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinkles Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 You lucky thing, that's an awesome tank :bounce: So what's going in it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonnz Posted June 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 7mm ply (never seen 8mm before) is what they use for bracing timber framing when building houses, even thin ply like that is very rigid with side to side movements. Perhaps if you're in Christchurch (putting your location in your profile is a good idea) more diagonal bracing would be needed, but IMO having that much ply screwed to the stand is plenty for places where the ground doesn't shake on a regular basis. IMO you've seriously under-estimated the filtration for that tank. The FX5 is a great filter, but even if the manufacturers claimed flow of 1500LPH is true I don't think its enough for even a lightly stocked tank of this size. The flow alone would hardly be enough to keep that large a volume of water moving, let alone keep the debris suspended and filter it out. I used to have one running on my old 1400L tank just for a bit of extra mechanical filtration (had the intake right by the dead spot where muck seemed to accumulate) along with a 5000LPH sump and a Tunze powerhead for extra circulation. I'm guessing my tank was a bit heavier stocked than what you are planning tho! IMO a sump would have been a better option (there are ways to make them very quiet; link), and if you're after gin-clear water it would have given you far more options like using filter socks so you can remove relly fine particles. That said, if you've decided to go with canisters (btw my FX5 wasn't exactly quiet, seemed to have a habit of getting air trapped in it and made a noticable bubbling sound) then two FX5s plus extra circulation would probably be ok depending on the stocking levels. I'd skip the carbon, it simply isn't necessary on a day-to-day basis and with the low turn over and small volume of carbon relative to the tank volume IMO it would be a complete waste of time/money/filter space. I would suggest setting the FX5(s!) up with the coarse sponge around the outsides, ceramic noodles or similar bio-media in the bottom two trays, and the top tray with filter wool and/or polishing pads or some other fine mechanical media to help remove the fine pariculate waste. Having this in the top basket makes cleaning/replacing it easy, and you'll only need to pull the baskets out to clean the coarse sponges every so often. I have found the flow from the FX5s to be not all that strong (I ran mine on my 400L tank before I had the sump set up and even in a tank that size it wasn't much) and I certainly wouldn't rely on one (or even two) to keep the water moving in a tank of that size. A small powerhead or two to keep the water circulating, the debris suspended, and the heat distributed evenly would certainly help. As for the heating, is this the kind of controller thing you're after? http://www.fish-street.com/aquarium_atc ... gory_id=60 I bought one recently but haven't set it up as I haven't had a chance to get the necessary adapters for it.. I ran two 300W Jager heaters in the sump for my 1400L tank and they would hold it at a constant 27C over winter no problems. That said, it was in a small-ish well insulated room with an 800L tank and a couple of smaller tanks, along with all the ambient heat generated from the lights, pumps etc. Depending on the temp you need and the temp of the office that may or may not be enough. Have you thought through how you'll do water changes? A siphon that reaches to outside or a drain somewhere is essential, and having the ability to pre-heat and treat a large volume of water is helpful if you're going to be doing larger water changes (probably not if its only lightly stocked?). I wouldn't set up another tank of this size with out at least a basic degree of automation (another thing a sump would have made easier) but if you're only changing 10-20% every 1-2 weeks it wouldn't be too laborious doing it manually. Well done taking on such a project, I know nano tanks seem to be the current trend but there is always something special about a big tank! Size matters and even if you're not into keeping big fish seeing small fish having the space to move and behave naturally is awesome. I really miss my old 1400L tank and can't wait until we've built/bought another house so I can set up another similar-sized [bigger!!] tank. There's a few people here with experience dealing with 1000L+ set ups and planning other peoples is nearly as much fun as owning one, so keep the questions coming. Bracing: I seem to be getting a 50/50 message from the boys at the office this morning about the bracing as well. I guess everyone has a different view. I don't mind airing on the side of caution - so regardless os whether there is a risk - I am going to remove the back panel - which is currently braced using 24 screws - the side panels - which although only have 4 screws currently - will have 12 each. and the front panels which will have 8 screws each. I will then apply 5 new additional braces from 17mm ply on the inside of the stand. 1 at each end - 2 at the back and one centre front. It wont change the appearance - it will only add around 10 KGs and this will ensure all our minds are at rest. I beleive the bracing as it stands is OK - but if the additional bracing is not required - it's not going to do any harm. Filtration: Yes - Yes - Yes - I know. The FX5 is a wonderful pump. I have seen a coupld of larger tanks using them to filter up to 1500 litres and they seem to be fine. I have convinced myself that it is going to be ok with a couple of powerheads. If it's not however - I need to decide whether to add another FX5 or whether to add a sump and use that with the FX5. Or I could just get a sump and mechanical filter. I will have to think about that some more. I guess the key thing with the sump is that I can then put the heaters downstairs instead of in the main tank reducing clutter. I have planned for 2 powerheads initially .. WATER CHANGES: I am eventually going to automate the water changes almost. I will go into detail a little later in the project. For now I have a very long hose and will dump the water directly into the tank and out of the tank without too much effort. I have a good source of 25 degree water - so I shouldnt need to heat the water. 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jasonnz Posted June 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Smidey I think I understand your concern about there being a great distance between the two end shear bracing panels (the ply) but you have to remember also that there is also ply on top that acts as shear bracing to prevent the middle from buckling out.. I completely stand by my first statement that this stand will be more than fine. Having just looked at that picture again I would like to ask jasonnz: The ply looks to be fixed with very few fixings? looks like 1 per side!!!!!!! Could you tell us how many fixings are used to fasten the ply? (at what centers) Ignore the amount of fixings in place at the moment - i was out of time yesterday and needed to get the painting started. It will be fixed with approx one screw every 150 -200mm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonnz Posted June 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 You lucky thing, that's an awesome tank :bounce: So what's going in it? Actually - not much to be honest. I havent thought much past the 2 small pleco's .. 2 angels - 1 BGK - 10 or so assorted tetras - 4 gouramis, 4 mollies and razboras .. 2 chinese algae eaters. Once the tank is running well - I will look at stock then .. think it's just a case of beefing each of those numbers up significantly. I would love a nice 50 or so school of something. any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 I would love a nice 50 or so school of something. any ideas? Think long and hard before putting any fish in there as getting them out of a tank that size is a mission! (especially if its planted and/or full of large bits of wood that are hard to remove). I think you're on the right track with a large school of a single species, 50+ of any tetra in a tank that size will be a sight, but I'd opt for a species that is known to be a good schooler (like rummy noses) as you'll see that behaviour far more with a large number of fish and large body of water. IMO if you're going for the lightly stocked small fish theme then it would be best to leave out the BGK as they get pretty big and have rather large mouths. Also think about if you really want to add the odds and sods from your old tank, it may be a good time to move on the few randoms and focus on larger numbers of fewer species. If you want the minimal stocking look then a few angelfish, big school of tetras, some corys, and a few smalelr plecs/twig cats/ottos would work really well. Could even add in a few dwarf cichlids like Apistogramma or rams (would avoid anything that is likely to prolificly breed tho!). RE the sump thing; thats really a decision you need to make before you have the tank made (or at least before it leaves Gregs workshop!). It would be nice to be able to hide the heaters, but if you're going planted and low stocked it probably isn't needed. You may be able to look into an inline heater to work with the FX5 (or another external pump) if you want to de-clutter the tank, but it may be easy enough to hide the heaters with plants or wood. Looking forward to seeing it set up, I've always wanted to do a really big tank with small fish!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ichthus Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Hmm - I'd be interested to see a nice big school of tiger barbs, especially if they had a few obstacles to swim around. But then, being nippy, that limits other fish you could put in. I guess barbs, or cichlids, could make the tank look busy and colourful. Angels and gourami's more peaceful and slow moving...depends on the look that suits your office I guess. Anyway, looking forward to more updates. Great start...just wait till we all get on to the topic of the bracing on your tank!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dachende Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 for shoaling / schooling - Harlequin rasboras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nativelover Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 agree on the Harlequins. :thup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henward Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 here's a pic of what i mean Wow i think that may be an unwanted organism :sml1: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henward Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 wow, nice stand build! tank sounds awesome, what fish you plannin on puttin in there? for a tank that big, i reckon a nice arowana would do just fine:D and you cant go wrong with the fx5s, awsome, clarity is spectacular with them i would suggest getting some of the poret foam from likoma on this forum. i use them, awesome. i would do poret foam top basket, filterwood middle, media bottom... you got 2 of them so its plenty of bio filtration unless you are planning to heavily stock it. Or you could do one fx5 focused on bio, another mechanical? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonnz Posted June 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Think long and hard before putting any fish in there as getting them out of a tank that size is a mission! (especially if its planted and/or full of large bits of wood that are hard to remove). I think you're on the right track with a large school of a single species, 50+ of any tetra in a tank that size will be a sight, but I'd opt for a species that is known to be a good schooler (like rummy noses) as you'll see that behaviour far more with a large number of fish and large body of water. IMO if you're going for the lightly stocked small fish theme then it would be best to leave out the BGK as they get pretty big and have rather large mouths. Also think about if you really want to add the odds and sods from your old tank, it may be a good time to move on the few randoms and focus on larger numbers of fewer species. If you want the minimal stocking look then a few angelfish, big school of tetras, some corys, and a few smalelr plecs/twig cats/ottos would work really well. Could even add in a few dwarf cichlids like Apistogramma or rams (would avoid anything that is likely to prolificly breed tho!). RE the sump thing; thats really a decision you need to make before you have the tank made (or at least before it leaves Gregs workshop!). It would be nice to be able to hide the heaters, but if you're going planted and low stocked it probably isn't needed. You may be able to look into an inline heater to work with the FX5 (or another external pump) if you want to de-clutter the tank, but it may be easy enough to hide the heaters with plants or wood. Looking forward to seeing it set up, I've always wanted to do a really big tank with small fish!! I'm starting to get excited... Yes - I think we will flag the sump for now. If i do add one at any stage - I have a plan in place that may not be overly traditional - but will provide the means to house and plumb one. I think we will keep the BGK for now - just until it grows up a little - it's a pretty special fish. Think I have decided today to add a CO2 setup into the mix for the plants as well - so excited about that. More updates on the cabinet tonight - should have everything braced by 8pmish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfishybuisness Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 agree on the Harlequins. :thup: I have a school of 50 in my 4ft I'm thinking of adding another 50 as it looks amazing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfishybuisness Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 And as for the co2 you may need to bottles ie to co2 setups on this size tank one at each end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonnz Posted June 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Ok - so tonight i raced down to Mitre 10 Mega after work and had a big sheet of 17mm ply cut into 5 braces for me. only $107 for peace of mind. I have some offcuts still which can be used for even more bracing. Talked to some people about diag bracing using 4x2 or similar and the general consensus was that 17mm ply was going to be 10 times more effective. I then fixed them into position - Screwed them in with no less than 15 screws each. This may seem excessive - but apparently every additional screw adds ...... I am super happy with how rock solid the frame is. I then applied some hinges to the front. I know on the outside is a bit tacky .. but .. I splashed out on some nice handles which I will fix to it tomorrow. Plugged some magnetic catches to the inside of the doors and all works well. Very happy with the result. Pics .. placing the sheets into the back 3 centre positions End Bracing Front Bracing sheet - screws much ? lol. This is a shot will all bracing in and screwed down. Comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheepsnana Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Looking good! The ply on the outside would have been enough, Overkill is peace of mind. I then applied some hinges to the front. I know on the outside is a bit tacky .. but .. A bit of paint will fix that. Plugged some magnetic catches to the inside of the doors and all works well. Very happy with the result. The Windsor magnets are the best IMO. Schlage and Miles Nelson just aren't as strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonnz Posted June 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Yeah - absolutely understand - though - all it would take is one sleepless night worrying about it .. and I would have done it anyway. Best to get it done now. Yes - the magentic latches I put on are rather pathetic actually - but it's on thing to be at the hardware store - never having done something like this before - and then being back installing them - before you realise that you might have got a size to small. Only 8 trips to Mitre 10 Mega in 3 days. :happy2: Seems the glass tank is on schedule also - which is a massive plus. Just putting together a list of other bits and bobs I am going to need - Should start to think about building a list in my first post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Just curious but did you consider metal framing ... the stuff they advertise on TV for housing. Or that not strong enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxxnz Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Congrat and welcome to the big tank lover thing Jasonnz :thup: Why?? and what up with these wooden stand bro?? to me you have spent twice the $$ over a 50mmx50mm Glav pipes... if you go with the metal stand, you wouldnt have to worries about bracing/rotten, and to achieve wooden grain looked you can alway screw wood panel/Meltecapanel to metal stand bro.. :thup: Poly sheet? i would grab 4 panels ready to silcone surrounding for good heat insulation to help the vol of heated water.. I didnt do my so no oportunity do it anymore.. :facepalm: Im guessing you got Greg to driledl a couple of holes in tank for future sumping?? If i get oprotunity to do my tank again i would chosen side overflow instead of bottom overflow drilled.. :smln: with the size of tank it would be better to sump it..It ok to do tiny fish with fx5 i think, but one of those day if you decide to change your mind into monster fish keeping, then a fx5 wouldnt handle heavy stock.. :happy2: My tank is 900mm height, I attached a bamboo stick to my gravel syhpon when i clean my tank :happy2: Good on You Jasonnz, enjoy your hard working tank, Its feel great to own a big tank.. :happy1: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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