livingart Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 conjecture and assumption are wonderful words for a newbie it needs to be straightforward and in layman's terms your average new hobbyist doesn't want long dissertations but a simple answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 The more frequently that water changes are carried out the less difference there will be between the tap water and aquarium water. The aim is to establish a balanced system between the toxic wastes produced by the fish (ammonia and nitrite) and the bacteria helping to create the balance and there are a number of ways this can be achieved. The best way is the way that works best for you and done properly none of the ways need to be cruel to the fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 +1 Alan's grandad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstar99 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Agreed, I have spent many hours in the LFS up here and I have heard for myself the advice given out. 99.9% of what I have heard is good, sound, unbiased advice. I have seen many many times people ignoring that advice and insisting on needing this and that. At the end of the day the shop assistant has no choice than to sell them what they ask for. I have also read on this forum people saying that the LFS told them this and that yet I have been in the shop that very time and know very well that that was not what they were told. But this thread is not for debating this but for discussion on cycling should anyone wish to do so.[/quote I guess impatience would have a lot to do wit hit as well. When some one starts out and decide they want fish, they want them now and want as many as they can fit. they dont want to come home from the shop with a empty tank. Yes maybe this discussion should also have its own topic. Feel free to cut it or delete it Mods and back to cycling. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Need a stickied thread on the emergency management of toxic biochemical conditions in your tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 I think some people who have not been involved in importing or breeding heaps of fish would not realise how much you can get away with and how tolerent fish can be (some species). When doing either of the aformentioned there is an economy of scale where people try to load their tanks to the maximum because the overheads are pretty much the same for 100 fish or 1000 fish. With experience these people would get away with what others would consider over the top. And by the way fish which have had their gills and or fins burned off with ammonia poisoning are not very saleable so this is to be avoided as are dead fish in Quarantine as this makes Maf get all excited. Why sticky "water changes?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 +1 Alan's grandad Need a stickied thread on the emergency management of toxic comments on the forum so much for first do no harm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 When doing either of the aformentioned there is an economy of scale where people try to load their tanks to the maximum because the overheads are pretty much the same for 100 fish or 1000 fish. With experience these people would get away with what others would consider over the top. I wonder then if these people who might lose 10% of their stock due to whatever practice they use might not mind so much because their profit margin is little affected. In contrast with the home keeper who will get upset at losing the same percentage but with say 10 fish. And it can confuse people who look at the overstocked fish in the LFSs often not realizing that there is massive filtration and automatic water change occurring behind the scenes to allow this to happen safely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zev Posted March 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Can we keep the personal digs out of this please, I do not want to have to start dishing out warnings for breaking the forum rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 When quarantining fish a 10% loss of fish would bring Maf in with a big sledge hammer and from a commercial point of view there is no profit in dead fish. It seems that you are having difficulty accepting that there are many ways to cycle an aquarium as there are many ways to breed and keep fish. I think people starting out there should be given these options so they can make the choice as to how they wish to carry these things out. Your reference to my grandfather only shows that you have missed the point. As I stated, neither of my grandfathers would have kept fish as they went through depressions and world wars and therefore would have been more interested in being able to keep themselves and their families alive and fed. My reference was to "grandfather" meaning a generation or two ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 And my impression was that from talking to breeders, they cull a large percentage of their stock to get the best quality fish which is what I was referring to when you mentioned economies of fish scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 you need to quantify your statements as you make them back on topic you can cycle a tank using chemicals to provide food for your bacteria to establish or you can use a few fish to do the same thing you can add chemicals to lower your ammonia etc or you can do a water change the slower you do the water change the less chance of shocking the fish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheepsnana Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 you need to quantify your statements as you make them back on topic you can cycle a tank using chemicals to provide food for your bacteria to establish or you can use a few fish to do the same thing you can add chemicals to lower your ammonia etc or you can do a water change the slower you do the water change the less chance of shocking the fish Pretty much sums up every arguement / discussion on here, in 5 lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrienne Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 At least if you do a water change you know that it is a more natural way to solve any problem. Adding chemicals will not guarantee the issue will not come back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 fishless cycle produces an indeterminable amount of bacteria so how do you know how many fish to add to produce enough waste to match the amount of bacteria present in the tank or is it just a case of bung a few in and hope you've got it right if you don't match it up properly will you get a die off in your bacteria instigating another mini cycle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstar99 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 I guess it doesnt really matter if you dont add enough fish and some bacteria die out, enough bacteria will survive to match your bio load. You would get a spike if you had too bigger bio load. And surely if your tank is cycling 2-3 ppm ammonia in 12 hours that is a pretty massive bio load. Tests have certainly been done to measure the amount of ammonia produced and im sure people who cycle with fish and have experimented with how many fish they can add to start a cycle and tested their ammonia levels would have an idea on this. Tests ive seen were basically based on inch of fish per gallon of water and ammonia produced. So many variables though like feeding etc. End of the day- just like cycling with fish- it comes down to experience and no doubt alot of the info we get today is based on trial and error. Some Pros with fish less cycling; ammonia is cheaper than fish you dont have to expose fish to ammonia, no daily water changes etc to keep ammonia below harmful levels. Can be quicker than cycling with fish as you can have optimal bacteria growing temps and PH levels that may not be suitable for some fish species. Tank can be fully stocked immediately Some Cons; Clear/ pure ammonia can be hard to source, Cycling with fish food, shrimp can be hard, slow to measure You dont have fish in your tank immediately Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Some breeders will tell you they cull heavily and some do but most in NZ seem to breed anything to anything and sell the results. I judge this on the number of goldfish sold that are rubbish. Black moor nymphs and oranda nymphs---all of that rubbish would be live food in Asia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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