the-obstacle Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 Argh! So I've had my angels in my community tank for about 6 weeks and they've been relatively lively and happy. Yesterday I went under the house and found all of them had clamped fins and were hardly moving, just sitting in the gentlest part of the tank and trying not to exert much effort. I threw together a separate tank for them with 50/50 existing tank water and fresh water from the hose and then waited for the heaters to bring the water up to the same temp as the tank so I could transfer them. They've been living in 26 degree water, give or take .5 depending on the weather, and I transfered them at 26 degrees and have now got the heaters doing their best to get to 30 degrees. There are no other signs of what's going on other than their lethargy and clamped fins. They're able to move in all parts of the water column so their swim bladder isn't stuffed and they don't appear to have and fungus / white spots / fluff / bloating so I'm at a bit of a loss as to what it is. I'm hoping they're just a stressed about having been at 26 degrees for so long and a good dose of warmer water will get them back to normal. I've put some salt in with them as well for good measure. Any ideas of what I'm dealing with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted June 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Nobody? Well, I did a 10% water change today and added some wunder tonic for good measure (i know, i know...) and the angels went from sitting really still in the corner to being a bit more active. After a little while they started flashing the bottom of the tank so I've either caused them to have a reaction or whatever they've got reacted to the tonic and they started to feel it. I'll keep an eye on them and may do 2 50% water changes tomorrow to get the tonic out if they're not getting any better. If they stay a little bit more active I'll carry on with the tonic and treat as recommended. Still nothing visible on their scales though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 you are doing all the right things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony law Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 they may have parsite or infection in there grills ..maybe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BURN Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Try Formalin or Potassium permanganate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted June 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 you are doing all the right things Thanks, that makes me feel better. they may have parsite or infection in there grills ..maybe all up in their grills? :lol: but seriously - I did wonder this but what would the symptoms be? I lost one smaller one today but the rest are still the same. Try Formalin or Potassium permanganate. I'll happily try anything to get them better but what would I be trying to treat with these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BURN Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Thanks, that makes me feel better. all up in their grills? :lol: but seriously - I did wonder this but what would the symptoms be? I lost one smaller one today but the rest are still the same. I'll happily try anything to get them better but what would I be trying to treat with these? CLAMP FIN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted June 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 CLAMP FIN. I was under the impression clamp fin was a symptom of illness not an actual disease. Interesting - i'll do some more research. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BURN Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 I was under the impression clamp fin was a symptom of illness not an actual disease. Interesting - i'll do some more research. Thanks. Their disease which is refereed to as clamp fin has a fancy name. But your symptoms are for many types of illness and the cure to them is Formalin or P/P Are your fish body's rotting before death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BURN Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Use formalin as ready available from LFS. You have done all your water changes. Then might need an instant re bio. I would personally never use again the bottled bio as is DEATH to my tanks when used. Clamp fin is also a sign of bad water quality before death. water change if from the tap can also kill what remaining good bio you got left. Some times a water change and a good dosing of dirty good bio water from a green tank or from another tank also a mass dumping of Bio wool from a good sump can change things over night. My bio wool I use when no bio in another tank is in the centre coloumns were flow is threw to out pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony law Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted June 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Thanks, I'll go to the LFS for some formalin now. I've just done the first big water change to get the wundow tonic out. Will do another in a few hours and then start the formalin. Fingers crossed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 Clamped fins can be a symptom of many things and a sign of stress. Since you say "community tank" I assume there are other inhabitants? Are all other fish fine and just the angels with clamped fins and lethargy? I am not a fan of adding any chemicals to the water, especially when you have not worked out what is wrong. Have you done water tests? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted July 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 Clamped fins can be a symptom of many things and a sign of stress. Since you say "community tank" I assume there are other inhabitants? Are all other fish fine and just the angels with clamped fins and lethargy? I am not a fan of adding any chemicals to the water, especially when you have not worked out what is wrong. Have you done water tests? Yeah, I agree, and at first I put it down to temperature related stress but since moving them and increasing the water changes (essentially 100% in 2 50% changes) so essentially giving them the best water conditions they were still not looking well and one of them died. All other inhabitants are perfectly happy. I'm putting it down to keeping the angels at 26 degrees for too long. The other occupants are more suited to lower temps. I added formalin this afternoon as per the recommended dose and they took a while to get used to it but they're now a lot happier. I'm hoping this is the answer. I did enough water changes to remove most of the wunder tonic before adding the formalin. I'll have to stop the water changes until the 3rd day as per the formalin instructions but the water that is in their tank no longer resembles the community tank water. I'm treating it as an uncycled tank and am watching the ammmonia levels very closely. At the moment they're reading 0 across the board as there is 120L of water in the tank. I expect there'll be a bit of ammonia after 3 days but they're only being fed lightly so I hope there won't be much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 I find the most discouraging part of fish keeping is the not-knowing for sure when it comes to their ailments. :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted July 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 I find the most discouraging part of fish keeping is the not-knowing for sure when it comes to their ailments. :-? That's the bit that's killing me. Since 4pm today the 0 readings across the board have gone to 0 ammonia, heaps of nitrite :facepalm: , 0 nitrate. I've just done a 50% water change which will have diluted the meds but I'd rather that than nitrite poisoning. After the water change the adults have started trying to flare again which is promising. I'll do another 50% in the morning and see what happens. There's definite improvement going on though. Hopefully not famous last words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshlikesfish Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 Temp has never been a problem with mine. 50% cold water changes straight from the hose never bothered them I also hate not knowing why a fish dies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted July 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 they've had heaps of hose changes in my tank too... Oh well, they're not going back it the big tank - I'm rebuilding a broken tank I picked up the other day for them so they can get the hell out of my future sump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 Some fish are more sensitive than others so one species may show signs of stress or illness when others are fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 in my JBL booklet it says "Increased ammonium or nitrite levels are always an indication of a disturbance in the bacterial decomposition process or poisoning of the nitrifying bacteria. This may have different causes such as excessive feeding, overstocking with fish, insufficient oxygen content, medication, changes in pH values etc". That makes me think that perhaps it's the cycling that is in a bung spot. It has converted the ammonia to nitrite but hasn't moved it to nitrate stage yet. Maybe a properly cycled filter from another tank in some angel friendly water is the answer. Or maybe that's what you've done already :dunno: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted July 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 Yeah, I was expecting an ammonia issue but I thought it'd be safe from nitrite for a few days. Clearly there are some bacteria in there but not enough of the right ones. The nitrite is only an issue in the hospital tank so not the cause of the original issue for which they were hospitalised. I've done 2 50% water changes today and will continue this regime until the tank cycles and/or the angels are healthy enough. I considered moving an internal filter from my guppy tank but figured if I managed to crash the existing filters I would probably do the same to this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hovmoller Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 increasing the water changes (essentially 100% in 2 50% changes) 50% + 50% = 75% water change (unless you managed to only suck out the old water molecules ) Hope your angels will get better soon. Don't think temp is the problem. Afaik Angels are very happy around 26°. I wouldn't worry about trying to get bio filtration on your hospital tank. Sounds like it is nice and big and with the wc's you are doing I wouldn't imagine amonia becoming a problem. I think you are doing all the right things, now it's just finding the right cure. (I think starting with wunder tonic was a good idea, after that I would perhaps try Furan 2 if I was still unable to diagnose it more accurately) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted July 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 50% + 50% = 75% water change (unless you managed to only suck out the old water molecules ) hahaha, I knew I'd get busted for that one Hope your angels will get better soon. Don't think temp is the problem. Afaik Angels are very happy around 26°. I wouldn't worry about trying to get bio filtration on your hospital tank. Sounds like it is nice and big and with the wc's you are doing I wouldn't imagine amonia becoming a problem. I think you are doing all the right things, now it's just finding the right cure. (I think starting with wunder tonic was a good idea, after that I would perhaps try Furan 2 if I was still unable to diagnose it more accurately) I think the water changes and the formalin have done or are doing the trick. they're starting to flare a bit more each day so hopefully in a few more days they'll be all sorted. I might do another formalin dose in a day or 2 as it only lasts 12 hours at max strength before being watered down with a water change. I lost another one today (down from 13 to 11) but I'm hoping that's the last. They're still spending a fair bit of time hiding out in the corner but are occasionally doing a nice swim across the middle of the tank. They've mostly stopped skimming the bottom of the tank too which i see as progress. Onwards and upwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted July 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 None dead this morning and all swimming in the middle/upper sections of the tank. These guys are on the mend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hovmoller Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 None dead this morning and all swimming in the middle/upper sections of the tank. These guys are on the mend. Good to hear :thup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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