The Future of the hobby in NZ?

[smidey]

i prefer latin names but think the important part of any name, common or scientific is it's accuracy. I have seen plenty of scientific names thrown around for african species that simply weren't that fish, no matter what language you say it in excrement is excrement.

[David R]

what difference does it make to them if that Texas cichlid isn't H. cyanoguttatus - they saw it at the LFS, liked the look of it and bought it.

... and then bred them and started selling them under the wrong name on TradeMe.

What difference does it make? If we did happen to have H. carpintis and H. cyanoguttatus here (which AFAIK we don't) and we just called them both "texas cichlids" and didn't worry about their real names, how long would it take before they start being cross-bred and we end up with "texas cichlids" that aren't actually texas cichlids but a hybrid between the true species native to Texas and one from south of the border?

I agree that common names have their place, but thats no reason not to learn the correct Latin names so you can correctly identify the fish you are keeping/breeding.

Smidey; how can you have accurate common names when there is no convention governing their use? They are simply made up for convenience sake and are essentially meaningless, especially given the frequency with which they are mis-used (eg referring to two different species as "texas cichlids"). I see what you're getting at and agree to a point, but what is more important for people to realise is that common names AREN'T accurate and that is the very reason why Binomial nomenclature exists with all the strict rules governing its usage. If more people in the hobby [the industry as well as hobbyists] embraced it then perhaps we wouldn't have so much confusion?

[smidey]

I agree that common names have their place, but thats no reason not to learn the correct Latin names so you can correctly identify the fish you are keeping/breeding.

Smidey; how can you have accurate common names when there is no convention governing their use? They are simply made up for convenience sake and are essentially meaningless, especially given the frequency with which they are mis-used (eg referring to two different species as "texas cichlids"). I see what you're getting at and agree to a point, but what is more important for people to realise is that common names AREN'T accurate and that is the very reason why Binomial nomenclature exists with all the strict rules governing its usage. If more people in the hobby [the industry as well as hobbyists] embraced it then perhaps we wouldn't have so much confusion?

you can have accurate common names but there needs to be a different common name for each. Don't get me wrong, i am "pro latin names" but i also realise that others do not share the same passion or have hours & hours to search through various sites researching latin names etc. i am not familiar with new world cichilds but alot of african common names are their latin name which helps but there are also many common names, different for each fish including similar fish like peacocks.

[Rob]

What difference does it make? If we did happen to have H. carpintis and H. cyanoguttatus here (which AFAIK we don't) and we just called them both "texas cichlids" and didn't worry about their real names, how long would it take before they start being cross-bred and we end up with "texas cichlids" that aren't actually texas cichlids but a hybrid between the true species native to Texas and one from south of the border?

Which I agree is of great concern for enthusiasts but of no great concern to hobbyists. Flowerhorns anyone? Glow-in-the dark GM danios anyone?

[David R]

I didn't realise there was a difference and freely interchange the terms. I guess you're referring to the difference between "fish havers" and "fish keepers", and I'd like to think that anyone willing to go to the trouble of signing up to a club or internet forum falls into the later category. Regardless, it is still no reason not to encourage the use of Latin names, especially amongst keener people such as the users of this forum.

Known hybrids like flowerhorns or discus are a completely different kettle of fish [excuse the pun] to unintentional hybrids created through ignorance. This thread on MFK is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, only in NZ we aren't lucky enough to be able to buy from people like Ken Davis or Jeff Rapps who correctly identify their fish.

MFK - Please read before asking if you have a Midas or Red Devil

We only have Amphilophus citrinellus [midas cichlid] on The List, and the fish we get here are almost certainly mutts, but people still talk about "red devils"....

[livingart]

You're probably right, I'm just not quite sure why he said it, other than just to say the opposite of what I had said...

don't take it personally, it was not meant that way

Well its about time you started learning them then!!! .

great attitude... :roll:

you can't make people conform to your expectations of the way they should behave

we need to take into account that while we may be passionate about certain aspects of the hobby others don't really care or latin names may be beyond them

maybe if shops started listing the latin name as well on their fish might help to educate some people

the fnzas as jennifer has stated is made up of members doing things on a voluntary basis an some aren't as passionate as others

And for the record, Henward and I started going through the motions of making a submission to get the entire Polypterus genus added to the list (and were going to fund it ourselves too), but unfortunately our best source of Polypterus information [Anne/Beblonde on MFK] disappeared off the face of the earth.

do as much as you can at filling out the form then

email it to others on here who are interested in helping, so they can add to it

reef has had some experience with this

get as much of the form done collaboratively between passionate people

then forward it to the fish committee

[Rob]

I guess you're referring to the difference between "fish havers" and "fish keepers", and I'd like to think that anyone willing to go to the trouble of signing up to a club or internet forum falls into the later category.

The hobby caters to a vast spectrum of people and their associated opinions - some of which we'll/I'll agree with some of which we/I won't.

At times (for me personally) it seems the further I get into the hobby the more conservative my opinions become (e.g. neons and guppies shouldn't be in the same tank because they prefer disimilar water conditions; importing/buying fish of only one gender shouldn't be allowed (unless you're current stock is low on a particular gender); people shouldn't be allowed to buy individual fancy plecos, they should have to buy at least 2, preferably a trio (again unless they've already got some of that type and they're increasing numbers); flowerhorns should never have been created in the first place; albino anything is just wrong. Just a selection of my extremist views

[David R]

Right-o, I'm out, sorry for trying to encourage people to raise the bar a bit.

Good luck to FNZAS getting new species added while continuing to cater to the lowest common denominator. [and I don't mean that in a sarcastic sense]

[livingart]

Good luck to FNZAS getting new species added while continuing to cater to the lowest common denominator.

that is why it is called a society

Right-o, I'm out, sorry for trying to encourage people to raise the bar a bit.

that is why a lot of things don't get done

it takes a lot of tolerance to other peoples opinions to get a diverse group to achieve an end result

[David R]

that is why it is called a society

Society for what? There is a big difference between catering to the lowest common denominator and accommodating hobbyists of all levels, unfortunately the society is more interested in the former than the later. The real reason a lot of things don't get done is because the society as a whole is stagnant, so many "advanced" hobbyists have dropped off the top over the years and don't even bother with this forum let alone the society as it offers them very little. Yes it is important to embrace the new-comers, but isn't it also important to encourage them to progress and become more educated?

I'm sorry you view my attitude as intolerant, but if I'm going to be shot down for encouraging people to learn the correct Latin names for their fish by someone who is supposedly the "Fishroom Sage" (who's job description included "to offer help and advice mainly in Cichlids, Rare and Unusual") then what do you expect. If we aren't even willing to talk about the fish using their correct names how are we ever going to fulfil the requirements of MAFs paperwork to get new species added to the list?

At the end of the day I couldn't care less if people don't bother to learn the Latin names of their fish, but it really grinds my gears when I get called out for trying to encourage it.

[hovmoller]

Sorry David I thought you were finished I will throw this one in anyway because I have just finished typing it:

Can someone enlighten me please..

I am curious to why here in NZ:

Crossocheilus siamensis (Siamese Algae Eater) is called "Black Line Flying Fox"

Corydoras Sterbai (Sterbai Cory) is called "Golden Leopard Cory" or something like that..

At first I thought it might be because these species are not on the allow list and therefore imported and sold under a pseudo common name but they are both on the list..

Speaking of the whole common name vs scientific name.. Why did someone change an otherwise fine common name?? (and yes David I know this one of the reasons why common names can confuse in the first place, just wondering if anybody know the reasoning behind these names?)

[smidey]

At the end of the day I couldn't care less if people don't bother to learn the Latin names of their fish, but it really grinds my gears when I get called out for trying to encourage it.

mate, i think you need to chill out a bit.

i cannot see where you have been "called out", to me there are merely simple responses in the discussion of people learning latin names. i cannot see where any of those posts are challenging the encouragement of it, it just discussion.

[the-obstacle]

i cannot see where you have been "called out", to me there are merely simple responses in the discussion of people learning latin names. i cannot see where any of those posts are challenging the encouragement of it, it just discussion.

I was thinking the same thing.

On another note - David, you are an inspiration and an assett to the NZ fishkeeping world and I appreciate that you take the time to share your knowledge here. If you do decide to take action either with or without the FNZAS I am more than keen to help out in any way I can. I truely believe your heart is in the right place and you are one of the few with not only the knowledge but also the passion to achieve the types of ideas that have been raised in this thread.

[David R]

Hovmoller; my only guess would be marketability, "golden leopard" sounds so much more enticing than "sterbai"...

mate, i think you need to chill out a bit.

i cannot see where you have been "called out", to me there are merely simple responses in the discussion of people learning latin names. i cannot see where any of those posts are challenging the encouragement of it, it just discussion.

Maybe you're right. Perhaps I'll just lurk in the background making cryptic one-line posts and stating "facts" to contradict people trying to make a genuine contribution...

how many posters belong to the fnzas?

davidr doesn't but is asking what the fnzas is doing about it

you provided a link to the application form david

have you done an exercise on filling it out for a species you think would fit the bill for rapid assessment

most people don't know where to start

we need to get involved with the local club and enthuse the society from within

we have to start somewhere and some of the newbies will be the experts of the future

like life there are all sorts of people in this hobby and to the average hobbyist the Latin names are just gobbledegook

I've tried to start the ball rolling.

Let me know if you want a hand with your submission livingart....

[Rob]

I am curious to why here in NZ:

Crossocheilus siamensis (Siamese Algae Eater) is called "Black Line Flying Fox"

Corydoras Sterbai (Sterbai Cory) is called "Golden Leopard Cory" or something like that..

To the best of my knowledge because that's what some wholesaler wanted to call them and their naming seems to be solely to enhance the possibility of a sale. IMO they'd probably get more sales of "black line flying fox" if they actually called them SAE's.

[oscnz]

Is it not true that the SAE and the Black line are two differnt fish?

[diver21]

yes they are diffrent fish

http://www.aquariumforum.com/f4/sae-fly ... -4279.html

1.) Two sets of barbs under the mouth = FF

2.) Yellow over the black stripe = FF

3.) Black line extending into the tail = SAE

4.) Black line is not smooth, it has more of a zig zag = SAE

5.) Back fin is bigger in proportion to body = SAE

[Barrie]

at the risk of stiring it up a bit and with no offence meant to anyone at all

This started as a lets get things added to the aproved list thread.

It was asked what the FNZAS was doing and this was answered in a vauge way as those involved have not been involved with this thread.

I suggested that both Reef and David would be a great assett to this sub committee because of their passion and interest.

It seems to me that this thread has moved away and become a naming argument

Please people, can we not try and convince both David and Reef to join a club and become involved with the FNZAS

The thread started so strongly with what appared would become a revitalised push at adding fish to the lists but sadly has degenerated into what appares to be almost personal attached with he said and they said taking over.

I have met both David and Living art and both are good people, Reef I have yet to have the pleasure but your passion is clear to all that have read these posts

[hovmoller]

at the risk of stiring it up a bit and with no offence meant to anyone at all

This started as a lets get things added to the aproved list thread.

It was asked what the FNZAS was doing and this was answered in a vauge way as those involved have not been involved with this thread.

I suggested that both Reef and David would be a great assett to this sub committee because of their passion and interest.

It seems to me that this thread has moved away and become a naming argument

Please people, can we not try and convince both David and Reef to join a club and become involved with the FNZAS

The thread started so strongly with what appared would become a revitalised push at adding fish to the lists but sadly has degenerated into what appares to be almost personal attached with he said and they said taking over.

I have met both David and Living art and both are good people, Reef I have yet to have the pleasure but your passion is clear to all that have read these posts

Window maker, Killifish breeder & Mediator!... Well said Barrie

[Rob]

Is it not true that the SAE and the Black line are two differnt fish?

Highlighting the annoyance of not using scientific names.

SAE (Crossocheilus siamensis) is most commonly sold here in NZ as Black Line Flying Foxes (in fact I've never seen C. siamensis listed as an SAE here in NZ). Has clear fins (except for the dark line extending into the caudal fin) and no evidence of a gold line on top of the dark line that runs the length of the body).

Epalzeorhynchos kalopterus is sold as Flying Foxes. Have colour in many of their fins, and a gold line on top of the dark line.

[Barrie]

come on guys

A lot of good ideas and comments were being made before things got off track

Jennifer, how about the sub commettee get in touch with David and Reef to work out some common ground and work together please?

[Rabbit]

Jennifer, how about the sub commettee get in touch with David and Reef to work out some common ground and work together please?

Where would the funding come from?

[livingart]

reef mooted the sum of $2,000 earlier in the thread

spread around a few interested people it wouldn't be much each

working on fish similar to ones already on the allowed list would be easiest and hopefully more successful

once the application has been done once it will provide a template for further ones

[Barrie]

Where would the funding come from?

Talk cost nothing at this stage

Funds to support the FNZAS's ideas and project come from members capitation fees ($10) per member and another sourse that Jennifer may wish to mention but as Im not a deligate of exec, I feel that I cant mention

[Mad Whip]

Right-o, I'm out, sorry for trying to encourage people to raise the bar a bit.

Good luck to FNZAS getting new species added while continuing to cater to the lowest common denominator. [and I don't mean that in a sarcastic sense]

David you sound like a prize prat.

I hope you do drop of the forum and I don't care how skilled at fish keeping you think you are. You have your head up your arse with an opinion of the club members like that. The club that runs the forum that you have made how many posts on what 3000+? Seem like you like to stir,take and pay nothing. Screw anyone giving you anytime. Go hide in your fish room and look at fish on the internet and send emails to other prats that way you wont have to go outside and mix with the people of society or as you may see them lowest common denominators.

How about a 1000 post limit for non financial members. :lol: