The Future of the hobby in NZ?

[livingart]

but having every newbie racing to breed common/easy species isn't going to make sure we have breeding populations of the rare and difficult things being maintained here

we have to start somewhere and some of the newbies will be the experts of the future

[Rob]

FNZAS have a "breeding scheme" which makes breeding a competitive sport and you get a gold star for every species you breed. Its good in the sense that it provides us with a record of what has been bred here [although there are many gaps because of unregistered breedings], but it falls a long way short of being a useful register like the one you mention.

Perhaps its time to give it an overhaul?

Yes some people treat the breeding scheme as a competitive sport (potentially flushing or using as feeders fry over the 30 days mark), though my suspicion is the majority of participants use it just to acknowledge they've had some success at breeding something that they would have breed anyway (just for the individual challenge/enjoyment).

As for a 'useful register' (where the register is fish kept, rather than fish being breed) I'm not sure if you'd ever get one (aside from issues about people actually listing their fish) - you'd have to have incredibly ultruistic participants.

Scenario: Hovmoller has male that he spent a few $ on, really likes and would like to breed; I have female that I spent a few $ on, really like and would like to breed. Neither of us have ever met or corresponded with each other, both of us think the other should lend/sell their fish to the other, both of us are concerned that our fish might die in the others possession and don't really want to lose the enjoyment of observing => end result we both keep our respective fish, hope like hell they get imported again soon so we can buy a mate for them, this doesn't happen and they both end up dying of old age.

As for the comment about breeding scheme being a list of what people had, rather than have - there is also the rebreed scheme where people can register subsequent breedings (once per year after that initial breeding) but the rebreed scheme data doesn't get posted here on the website.

[ryanjury]

David has made a very good point about the breeding scheme it is a register of what has been bred in the past not who is still breeding stuff.. People who are out for trophies do the bare minimum to get the breeding/rebreed registered then flick the fish and go onto something else or has Rob just suggested feed them out. It is useful to see who you might be able to contact for info about breeding types of fish though becuase you can see who has done it in the past but not as a register of what is here.

I don't believe a register would work very well, I have found alot of the rare fish are hidden away and controlled, people trying to ensure they don't get out there and bred because the price they can command for offspring will drop. So you will still get the same people not saying what they have, there are some breeding groups of L046 around yet with all the threads about them noone has put up there hand and said they have them.

As Jen has suggested the fish commitee is working on some of the qusetions that have been asked already to try and get some answers, but as the commitee has only just been given goals and just started work on things some of it may take time.

Mcculloch I would love to see more tangs in the country the 3 you have suggested have all been here but died out and not been imported again. As hobbiests we need to get these things and breed the snot out of them and spread them, again that is easier said than done and as people breed them more the price drops and less people breed them. I have 45 tanks and tend to horde alot of my species away and breed the odd batch to keep them going, it is hard to predict what will die out and what wont.

[the-obstacle]

I would have thought the point of such a list shouldn't be limited to the species being bred. I'm likely to have a small number, or even one, of a certain type of fish (pleco for example) as my tanks aren't big enough to house any more at a time but I'd be more than happy being contacted by someone who wanted to try to pair up mine with their same breed fish for the purposes of breeding - almost like stud farming but for fish - I'd expect my fish to be returned after a sucessful breeding group has been established or replaced depending on the deal which could be made between the 2 parties at the time.

It would take the pressure off getting involved in a special order if I knew I wouldn't then have the country looking at me directly to breed the fish I wanted. I'd be more than willing to lend them out / chip in for a breeding group to then get my pick of the litter (so to speak) once the group was established.

Just an idea but I strongly urge whoever creates the 'new list' (please do so, it would be a great service to offer the community) to not just limit it to people actively breeding the fish they have.

I'm happy to help with whatever I can on this front.

[ryanjury]

The FNZAS is not allowed to rewrite the list and add new species, if there is evidence that a species was already established here (ie breeding scheme data) and it is not on the list then it may be able to be added. Again the fish committee is going to contact the powers that be and make enquires as to how to add fish to the list but it might be unrealistic to do and cost money..

I have started going through the list and doing the african species, updating the old names finding current and valid sc. names for the various fish and also making a list of known and established fish species that are in NZ that are not on the allowed list. For example in the african world red empresses are not on the allowed list but are everywhere..

[David R]

Rob and Ryan; valid points, but not everyone is going to be secret-squirrel about what they have, and the scenario you mentioned Rob where we are down to the last two of something and neither participant wants to lend theirs to the other is an unfortunate but extreme example.

I have a pair of Amphilophus festae from the group of 8 juvis I bought. I don't know anyone else with more than one, although Hollywood arranged for me to get a couple of extra females from another person who bought a group, so there may be more than one out there. Maybe. I'd like to see this species distributed and become more commonly available here, and thats what I intend to do with the fry when the parents finally get up to breeding size. Its not just the rare things like L046 that are in danger of dropping off the list, midas cichlids for example seem to be very scarce at the moment, despite being easy to breed. Same story with jags, although there are a couple of pairs floating around.

Yes some people won't participate, and others won't list everything they have, but I'm sure many people would take part and it could be a worth while thing given time.....

[Barrie]

for the last 3 years I have scanned the breeding scheme/lists and contacted members and breeders from years gone by. Where as they often do not have fish or those specie that I was interested in, they were often able to point me in the rite direction. This has meant that at least 3 specie of killi has reappared from peat that was lying around in a hot water cupboard.

The breeding scheem is really good Im telling you.

The minimum of 10 to register is in my mind good as well as it allows interested people to know that the fry found in the water change bucket was a breeding that is likely to be true rather than I think its a ??? or a ???

(BTW, its not stars David, its a certificate)

[Rabbit]

The FNZAS is not allowed to rewrite the list and add new species, if there is evidence that a species was already established here (ie breeding scheme data) and it is not on the list then it may be able to be added. Again the fish committee is going to contact the powers that be and make enquires as to how to add fish to the list but it might be unrealistic to do and cost money..

I have started going through the list and doing the african species, updating the old names finding current and valid sc. names for the various fish and also making a list of known and established fish species that are in NZ that are not on the allowed list. For example in the african world red empresses are not on the allowed list but are everywhere..

Or classify them an invasive species so they can euthanize your fish, as has been done in other incidences.

[ryanjury]

If that is the direction that MAF wish to take with them then they are welcome to it, there has been no sneaking around with them at all they have been on trademe with listed scientiffic names for years same with the other species I have identfied that I know about that are here and being bred and common that aren't on the list.

[diver21]

Or classify them an invasive species so they can euthanize your fish, as has been done in other incidences.

Rember the list is a list of "ornamental fish and marine invertebrate species eligible for importation into New Zealand",

not a list of allowable species to be kept in New Zealand, if it was then goldfish (Carassius auratus) would be on the list.

[Rabbit]

Rember the list is a list of "ornamental fish and marine invertebrate species eligible for importation into New Zealand",

not a list of allowable species to be kept in New Zealand, if it was then goldfish (Carassius auratus) would be on the list.

Meaning until proven legal, although Carassius Auratus is here MAF have the ability to make them illegal at any time (koi)... although it would be a useless effort to control such a widespread fish.

[spoon]

another point i have is that we need to encourage more people into the hobby even though there may seem like a lot of us on this forum and in the local clubs a sales rep for fish products told me once " 1 in 4 households in new zealand own a fishtank, yet only 1 in 100 have had something in it in the last 5 years "

now im not sure how scientific that is and i dont really care the point being there are a lot more potential fishkeepers out there and educating them of our causes would be very benefical for the fnzas , for all the local fish shops and the hobby as whole

[Fruju]

another point i have is that we need to encourage more people into the hobby even though there may seem like a lot of us on this forum and in the local clubs a sales rep for fish products told me once " 1 in 4 households in new zealand own a fishtank, yet only 1 in 100 have had something in it in the last 5 years "

now im not sure how scientific that is and i dont really care the point being there are a lot more potential fishkeepers out there and educating them of our causes would be very benefical for the fnzas , for all the local fish shops and the hobby as whole

not if they are poor fish keepers and keep killing their fish, then they might have new stock every 2 weeks :roll:

[diver21]

Meaning until proven legal, although Carassius Auratus is here MAF have the ability to make them illegal at any time (koi)... although it would be a useless effort to control such a widespread fish.

Cyprinus carpio is koi, and have already been declared an unwanted organisim.

although MAF has the abilitly to declare anything unwanted why would they do it now instead when it first appeared

[Rabbit]

Cyprinus carpio is koi, and have already been declared an unwanted organisim.

although MAF has the abilitly to declare anything unwanted why would they do it now instead when it first appeared

As i said cyprinus carpio was brought in legally in the beginning but is not on the allowable imports list and was eventually classified an unwanted organism. As i stated in the first place these fish are here and are not allowable "imports", making it entirely up to MAF if they are to be banned or not is in there court.

[Jennifer]

another point i have is that we need to encourage more people into the hobby even though there may seem like a lot of us on this forum and in the local clubs a sales rep for fish products told me once " 1 in 4 households in new zealand own a fishtank, yet only 1 in 100 have had something in it in the last 5 years "

now im not sure how scientific that is and i dont really care the point being there are a lot more potential fishkeepers out there and educating them of our causes would be very benefical for the fnzas , for all the local fish shops and the hobby as whole

[reef]

so I have got no idea as to what (if anything) FNZAS is doing to increase the number of species available here,

Maybe I can help to answer that.

Basically nothing at all.

I have asked FNZAS many times in the past to bring this up at the annual AGM . However I never heard back.

I pointed out that importers have a limited list currently and if we don't add fish the current list is going to get more restrictive as some species will be harder to get.

We are still waiting for MAF to add some fish which they missed 5 years ago when the list was changed from genus to species.

Basically MAF has done a risk assessment on the current genus's on the allowable list so hopefully it will be easier to get fish approved that have the genus on the list,

If it is a new genus then it will take far longer a they have to do a risk assessment.

MAF is currently working on a simple way to add fish if the genus is on the current list,

Will follow this up as I have not had an update in a few weeks.

To add fish requires some research and then it has to be approved by ERMA, takes about 4 months or so, Then MAF have to look at the fish which can take a lifetime. So far 5 years.

However if we get hobbyist to complain then they will do something about it, they seem to move quickly when you mention the ombudsman.

Currently working on getting a few importers to coordinate adding fish to the list once a year. One for marines and one for freshwater.

If we can get say importers to make one submission to add fish it will be far better than everyone trying to add fish, also it will be cheaper to a bulk submission than many.

Also adding fish should be coordinated with an importer as it is pointless adding fish that are hard to get.

Adding fish is also going to cost so somehow money needs to be raised.

I suspect that if we could get a list of say 30 species it would cost about $2000 if most of the research is done by a committee.

[reef]

As i said cyprinus carpio was brought in legally in the beginning but is not on the allowable imports list

Goldfish will be allowed to be imported, however there is so many condition that no importer will want to import them

[reef]

Here is something that is being worked on by MAF.

[livingart]

Adding fish is also going to cost so somehow money needs to be raised.

good idea, it could be funded by those who will most gain financially from the import of new species

perhaps a small surchage on each fish could recover any outlay for them

i am sure hobbyists wouldn't mind that to get new species in their tanks

I suspect that if we could get a list of say 30 species it would cost about $2000 if most of the research is done by a committee.

not a lot of money for the importers to all chip in but it may be hard to get them together to form a committee

[reef]

good idea, it could be funded by those who will most gain financially from the import of new species

perhaps a small surchage on each fish could recover any outlay for them

i am sure hobbyists wouldn't mind that to get new species in their tanks

I think you will find that a few importers have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours on fish list for free.

Also when MAF change the fish standard a few of us spend more time whilst some importers do nothing.

MAF is always increasing the cost of importing and making it hard to import fish, Most importers have not passed the cost on .

If a importer adds a surcharge then the fish will cost more , so hobbyist will then go to another importer who has done nothing and buy theh fish from them because they are cheaper.

When fish are added to the allowable list then any importers can import them.

some night time reading

http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/files/biosec/consult/ira-ornamental-fish-supplementary-ra-ros.pdf

http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/files/biosec/consult/ira-ornamental-fish-ros-on-supplementary-ra-jun2010.pdf

I think you will be surprised how much work goes on behind the scenes of the hobby by a few importers.

The hobby does need a big voice as MAF has put a spotlight on importing fish.

[livingart]

I think you will find that a few importers have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours on fish list for free.

Also when MAF change the fish standard a few of us spend more time whilst some importers do nothing.

MAF is always increasing the cost of importing and making it hard to import fish, Most importers have not passed the cost on .

If a importer adds a surcharge then the fish will cost more , so hobbyist will then go to another importer who has done nothing and buy theh fish from them because they are cheaper.

When fish are added to the allowable list then any importers can import them.

that is a pity the ones who expend their time and money should be allowed 1 shipment before others can apply to bring them in

already have those

[reef]

Like anything they have to be fair , otherwise someone will complain because they have been treated unfairly.

One shipment would not pay for the work anyway as you can't get all the fish you added in one shipment.

For hard to get fish it can take months.

[Barrie]

Maybe I can help to answer that.

Basically nothing at all.

I have asked FNZAS many times in the past to bring this up at the annual AGM . However I never heard back.

With respect

Reef

when did you attand an AGM/Conference?

I have only been to one and the discussion that was spent on that one was well over an hour

There are sub committees to deal with both fish and plants and they are dealing with government agencies all the time.

You have done your homework so why dont you get in and offer your help to them?

I take it that you are a member (being that your very concerned)

[Barrie]

I think you will find that a few importers have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours on fish list for free.

Also when MAF change the fish standard a few of us spend more time whilst some importers do nothing.

If a importer adds a surcharge then the fish will cost more , so hobbyist will then go to another importer who has done nothing and buy theh fish from them because they are cheaper.

I think you will be surprised how much work goes on behind the scenes of the hobby by a few importers.

This is not to do with fish only

In my trade I have spent thousands testing and improving glazing systems for double glazing into timber windows.

I have the ONLY system that has been tested and proven yet still government agencies teach a systen that has proven to fail from about 5 years on and others try to copy mine.

Thing is that those that are serious will always do the work and fund it, they also choose whom they will help when needed. The public become aware of those that have a serious interest in their field and they will often support them more.