The Reptile hobby in New Zealand

[henward]

PART 2:

the question is, where do these new reptiles come from.....? thast the mystery.

we all nkow they are around.

like the iguanas etc, shingle back, leopards ..... but some? maybe were smuggled... who knows.

it happens, MAF can never be everywhere.

how about people coming in boats?

Or shipping plants. that snake that was found with plants shipped from south america.... how many of those come in unchecked?

im sure some slip through.

so..... to simply say that reptile breeders are not in it for the money is ... utterly misleading and false.

The goal is to subsidise the hobby, reptile and fish keeping costs money....

reptiles compared to fish keeping i think is cheaper in general. from my experience, reptile keeping is 1/3 the cost of fish keeping.

If you account heating, water useage, fish food, fish treatment etc....

reptiles, all you need is the UV bulb, heat emitter and food is usually household food..... insects can be bred yourself. MIce is easily bred with scraps.

I would say, fish breeders dont do it for the money, but i would go as far as saying, reptile breeders for the first 3 maybe up to 5 seasons at least, will breed reptiles with the clear intention of generating a form of income.... usually surplus to the reptiles needs to turn a profit.

Discus breeders in nz have repeatedly come and gone. some thinking they can make a good business out of it..... well.... untrue.

but if you look at leopard geckos for example....

[henward]

i bought mine for $1500, i bought 2.

$3000. jsut from me, the breeder of this reptile would have been able to use that money for a years power.

i approximate that he had upwards of 30 babies.

average each baby was sold for $1000 lets say....

thats $30k.

now they sell for 700 to 800 each.

i bought mine as i loved them.... not really a breeder, i just like reptiles and animals...

but some purchased a massive amount, one person even bought about 6 of these leopard geckos...

so....thats at least 6k.

to say that this person did not turn a profit... even if you look at how long he has been trying to breed them.... once you buy the animal - thats it, only minor heating cost PLUS food.

iguanas..... dont get me started.

iguanas lay sometimes close to 100 eggs in one sitting......

and with out natures egg eaters and fungus and boring insects to kill eggs.

viable babies from iguana cluches will be greater than 60% i am sure...

how much money do you think that person made form iguanas, and that money was never confiscated through the criminal proceeds act as it was not available then.

tortoises? ...... much more

simple business - cost of keeping reptiles reduce in % as you get more breeders and your set up gets larger.

[phoenix44]

So supply demand elasticity then? :lol:

[Insect Direct]

:roll:

[Morcs]

I love you Henward.

You put into facts and figures with reasoning what i was unable too

[acanthurus]

Wow,

Thanks Henward i never looked at it that way, you really do make it all so simple.

So if we go by your maths and lets take the staring date as 2000 and I will go with your statement that they breed at 2 years have 30 eggs each and lets make it simple and go with an average price of $1000 each. Lets also take the assumption that 50% will be female.

So, lets say there were 4 females to start with and each has 2 clutches a season. Therefore that would make 240 babies first season and the same the second season. There would be 124 egg laying female in the third season meaning 7440 babies. If you carry on with this maths out until today then there should be many billions of dragons, but lets round it down by a few billion for arguements sake and say there are one billion dragons.

Taking each dragon to be sold at $1000, then $1 000 000 000 000 has been made from dragons so far in NZ, or about 10 times our GDP over the last 10years.

No wonder I see so many reptile keepers driving around in lambo's.

This is the problem with making silly assumptions based on limited actual knowledge.

Henward once again the intent of your post seems to be more to tar someone elses name than to add anything to the conversation. You have been in this hobby for a few years now and I'm sure even you will admit that you have at times tried to push the boundaries. My point here is not take aim at you but suggest that maybe you should accept that we are all basically in the same boat.

While some people in the hobby have been more successful than others why should this be wrong? Is this really the main issue with the hobby at the moment or are we going to let our insecurities about other peoples success get in the way of the actual issue at hand - namely the threat that we will be shut down altogether.

[alanmin4304]

I don't think your figures are quite right. We paid more than you for a pair of beardies and the wholesale price this year is probably 125-150 dollars.

Our female laid exactly 100 eggs last year (not that they were all good)

50% deformities is a bit much for beardies and maybe you should evaluate what you are doing. I am actually grateful that I didn't have to try to feed 100 baby beardies--I think that could be a quick road to insanity. If anyone thinks they are getting rich from breeding beardies I think they are in dreamland.

The same thing will happen with leps and albino frogs, and probably quicker than with the beardies because of the present economic climate. People will pay what they want to pay and at the moment (particularly in Canterbury) people have other priorities.

[WTM]

Basic economics dictate that price equals where supply equals demand...

The problem in NZ is that the threat of being shut down is sufficient to keep supply low hence the higher prices.

Personally I have no issue with people making profits while taking the risk to bring a species back out of the closet so they are available to more of us, ie beardies. Once they are established, then supply increased and prices come down.

Now hopefully the same will happen with the tortoises...

[henward]

acanthurus, i think you totally misread my post....

i did clearly state that the price that is inflated is only valid for the first few seasons. after that, the market gets flooded and rarity is nullified... hence resulting in price drop which makes it not so worth while....

eventually people WILL struggle to sell the reptiles.

in nz, only a certain % of people will ever buy reptiles, out of those people that would like reptiles... once again only a certain % would actualy spend the money.

same with expensive arowanas, that is why they are nto imported as often as i would like them to be!!

acanthurus, you seem to be picking a fight with me when i am not getting personal...thats ok, it shows that you are indeed trying to get a reaction from me:)

but i wont bite 8)

i will clarify.

i used the term 50% deformities to simply put that even if you did have that many deformities, which you said with reptiles is different than fish..... as some fish you would perhaps get that many... just as an example.

then even with such high mortality rate, it actually work towards your favour when you are the only one breeding a particular reptile.

i believe you can ONLY make money on reptile with a honeymoon period of the first 2 to 4 seasons of young - after that, others will breed to.

thats when you have to start doing VARIANTS to pump up the price.

[henward]

say at first you have only grey BDs.

after 2 seasons, you have sold say 100 greys for 2k each.

you have made a substantial amount of money.

feeding 100 babies is not easy, but it certainly wont cost 200,000 dollars.

but if course, selling those would mean you have to find 100 buyers.

but that wont be hard, if they have never been on theopen market before.... as the initial beardie breeder in nz, who ever it was... i am very sure, if they canc ome out to correct me and say who they actually are that would be a great help.

100 buyers is easy fors omething that no one has ever seen before in nz.

then, you would say that 2 years time, 100 young becomes 20 pairs to breed (conservative extimate)

then you bring out your Yellow BDs , greys are cheaper, and yellows are more...(this is standard, new variant for same product.)

then same process then you bring out the red BDs. so on and so on.

eventually the BD avenue ran out...

so somewhere out of who knows where... Coastals came to market.... not so nice but ... novelty fator.

etc...

Acanthurus, the formula for business is generally the same NO MATTER what you are selling......elastic supply and demand..... i like it!

there are technical words youc an use by using google, but understanding the concept is more important than having a label.

How you think i came to this conclusion? Because i would do exactly the same thing.... IF I WAS THE FIRST PERSON TO OBTAIN BEARDIES.

unfortunatley i was not.

so like i said, you DONT ALWAYS make money on it, but there is a degree of profit to be made initially from them.

i dont t hink you can dispute that - if you can, then i suggest you inform us all instead of our personal attacks undermining my analysis and credibility which i believe is sound in concept.

[henward]

the concept is similar to even technological things.

Price drops as more people try to produce the same product just different brand.

to say i was saying is false is highly misguided.

i am not disputing that it doesnt make you a BILLIONAIRE comeon, lets get real. all im saying is that it makes a good amount of cash, im sure tax free cash too!

then you gotta keep up and keep getting new stuf...

you can draw parallels to Ipods, Computers, Cars, Illegal drugs, tv, dvd players, dvd and bluray introductions.....even pizza.

if anyone has an alternate analysis i would be happy to hear it, but i really do believe that, what im saying is a valid concept..... as it makes sense and logical, most of all i guess...........its true............

i was offered bds 2 years before it was common and available in shops..... i was told the price was $2500. i didnt buy cos i knew 2 years on it would drop dramatically, i got it for $500 in 2 years

[livingart]

i think you totally misread my post....

it can be hard to understand amongst the rhetoric

i was offered bds 2 years before it was common and available in shops..... i was told the price was $2500. i didnt buy cos i knew 2 years on it would drop dramatically, i got it for $500 in 2 years

by your calculaions in that 2 years you could have made a lot of money

[acanthurus]

Sorry mate but your logic(?) is still not adding up.

You say there is no money to be made yet also state that the going price is currently $800. Even if you had just one pair that is a considerable amount of money, yet I don't know of any professional bearded dragon breeders.

If it really is as simple as buy - breed - sell, then why havn't more poeple including yourself made small fortunes.

The answer is that it may all look that easy from the outside looking in, but it never is a simple as you think.

Anyway you don't have to take my word for it, just have a read of the posts by some the more large scale breeders above.

And to repeat what I said earlier, what is your issue with the whole money thing anyway. Some people made a small amount of money but I maintain that no one got rich. If you were not able to afford them when they came out then as you said you just have to wait until the price drops.

If you did succeed in sourcing the salamanders, monitors and unusal frogs that you were looking for I'm sure you to would have charged a premium when they first entered the market.

[livingart]

the main issue with the hobby at the moment or are we going to let our insecurities about other peoples success get in the way of the actual issue at hand - namely the threat that we will be shut down altogether.

do you have an answer for this or a way to counter it

[acanthurus]

To be honest, no.

But if the day did ever come where they try to shut the hobby down, showing that we have been engaging in active and constructive conversation about this issue over time would be useful evidence in our favor.

Also there are many people out there and maybe someone else can come up with an idea, or be inspired to act on behalf of the rest of us indolent keepers.

[Navarre]

Some of all of your logic is flawed.

As many of you know i breed dogs

I have some of NZs biggest winning dogs (www.dogsonline.co.nz, www.boxtonandtennille.com).

I breed for quality not quanity I demand a premium and i get it. I make little money cause I dont farm the animals. I am lucky to cover costs over the life of my kennel. Yet I know people who do this for a living, as well as those who more than cover their cost but it is not their job. They supply super stores and LPS with things

I am not in it for the $ but I am in it for the breed.

That is my choice.

I still do this because I want to.

Lets apply that to some of your logic.

If I set up a breeding set up like some of the reptile farms in the states.

I can set up conditions for many herpts and FARM them making them available for a few dollars here and there. I can afford to cull or sell the least healthy animals and the most unliked colour morphs for little expense . But I am Farming. And I have to have access to a stock population to begin with

Here most people have herpts cause they like them.

they have neither the time money or inclination to FARM. those that do supply the market and make the cash.

Take the iggies

10 grand a throw then 5 k for a young pair...in a matter of months.

Leopards are a good example one male in the country because of our lack of care in the past. Some one works it out and now you have 1500-500 in a few short years.

Supply does not equal demand in this case nor in my opinon was effort rewarded for keeping the animals here.

Secrecy is a must because we are self forefilling prophocies.

a few years back you could buy natives and some were exported to europe in the thousands ...for a large sum of cash... legally.

My point is this

We all have a passion for these animals ...native or exotic...it is a pity that sometimes this passion causes conflict..but that is the way of Man....either way we are the GAURDIANS of this hobby so it is up to us to promote it, protect it, and participate in it

In 20 or 30 years we will be able to look back and say crikey a leopard for $20 australasian dollars. But we need gaurdians and we need stock and we need a hobby to continue with

[livingart]

thanks nav

now we are getting somewhere

[alanmin4304]

Well said Nav

[Insect Direct]

Henward - how many hatchlings did you get from that small female bd you were trying to breed?

Good to know you pay tax on all your fish sales to (thats if you've even bred/sold any). Your an honourable man, just doing what he can, shame you dont see the bigger picture and seem to be all uptight about A certain person who you had a falling out with.

[henward]

Insects direct:

First of all, - i was not targetting specifics. I will guarantee that if not all , most of people who sell BDs or reptiles or fish on TM dont pay tax on profits. Denying that would be naive. Insect direct, I dont sell fish for profit.... I dont breed fish for profit, tried but too impatient....what can i say, i am a collector at heart... not a propagator/breeder.... we are different breeds of hobbyists.

Second of all, I NEVER IN ANYTIME SAID IT IS EASY to breed BDs.

in fact, i never really tried, imt oo impatient.

In fact i have never tried to breed reptiles, trying with leos - but no luck yet. they are jsut getting of age - also i want a big colony, not to sell at all in fact.

I dont believe leopard geckos is in astage where you cant make money now - seling it is difficult now not like 1 to 2 years ago. which proves my point. LFS and Owners selling them for 800 each or so, half of what i paid for - and cannot sell them fast enough.

So what im trying to say is for those who CAN breed them, they make money on them as they got in first......

If you really wanted, you can put alot of effort into sourcing the 'next big thing' then breed it, be the first and get some cash otu of it, but no matter what - you will get someone breeding these animals after 2 to 4 years, which will then effectively destroy the market.

Also, i get what you mean - but breeding dogs are much different to breeding reptiles.

first of all dogs are much mroe expensive to keep, especially big dogs. My uncle used to be teh top cocker spaniel and st bernard breeder In philippines... wins dog shows, each animal will fetch THOUSANDS! and... even some are shipped to hong kong as he had that reputation....

he used to spend so much on food, and in philippines, air conditioning as the st bernards overheat in tropical heat - so i have had exposure to the animal industry and nto completely naive on it...

all im saying is that yes, you can do it for the passion, also the proceeds sometimes just help with the bills.... if you get to a point where you can sell for a profit, thats great.

but with reptiles... i doubt that the initial dragons or water dragons, blue tongues etc bred was "show quality"

we dont have that luxury here in NZ, we just keep what we have because of rarity and unlike US or UK, we dont have that much stock to choose from.

the comparison is flawed. My reasoning if you take it into context i believe is sound.

I never claimed i bred BDs and sold them for a fortune, nor did i try. when i got offered 2500 per dragon.... i refused, i could not afford it frankly. those who could afford it were lucky - some of which had the 'breeding thumb' and was succesfull.... to claim those people who bred them did not make their money back plus some during the Honeymoon period of t hat species availability in nz i beleive would be inaccurate.

INSECT DIRECT: uptight? how am i being uptight, you seem to not be able to let go of the previuos threads, im literally offering my analysis as i see it and what i have experienced before. So i apologise if i seem uptight.

All im trying to say, this discussion is about profitability of Reptile breeding - and there is a degree of profitability, not i say DEGREE of profitability.... and i stated that.

as for SUPPLY IN DEMAND

to elaborate.

suply in demand is a term used generally. It can goboth ways.

supply and demand can be used for a supply too much for demand and visa versa....

supply in demand doesnt mean there is always a demand and shortage of supply.

hence i stated the first 2 to 4 seasons, is the honey moon period of reptile breeding in nz i beleive.

after that, animals come of age.... maybe except tortoises.

but once a tortoise starts laying - its only a matter of time that the market gets saturated.

Another concept is this.

Culling your animal on purpose to keepnumbres down.

some breedersin asia of fish purposekill kill babies to keep numbers in demand.

but yous ee.... the problem wtih thsi is that as soon as you get someoen that manages to get a pair and breeds, it undermines your whole market.

so i believe the key is...

when you have a good strain, wether it be a reptile or fish what ever...

sell it as much as possible, but at the same time, develop new ones..

thast hwo the discus market works in asia.

large scale breeders always have new strains and they dont sell it for at least 2 seasons or so...

thsi is so they can constantly roll out new strains, at the same time developing new ones.

so at any given time they probably have (jsut example) a few strains in the back burner ready to be 'launched' - thsi is common with flowerhorn in asia.

reptiles, perhaps this can apply... but we have limited bloodlines here so nto erally possible.

but leopard gecko breeders in US do this.... i have spoken to one, offering to ship me some strains for free in fact!! he said im not a threat to his operation, he offered to give me some for free!! but problem is that we can import them at all... legally at least.

so naturally, i refused them.

I apologise of my comments seemed like i was targetting someone.... ill screen my further posts to stop that... insect direct, my posts are genuine in partaking in this discussion productively...

i am simply offering my insight and opinion to business and crossing with the hobby....

like i said, i believe the formula for business is the same and applicable accross the spectrum. it just needs to be adapted and customised for that market.

ONE MORE THING

lets make this clear

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH ANYONE MAKING MONEY ON REPTIELS, FISH OR WHAT EVER.

lets get that clear......

however, i dont like hearing people saying they are robin hoods - when i beleive at some point they have turned a good profit from seeing an opportunity and taken it. Like most business men... bill gates, warren B, Donald trump, branson etc.

when you see the window - jump into it!

If i made mon3y from reptiels i would say and not try to hide that fact. to try and convince people you NEVER made moeny ro NEVER made good profit from reptiles is simply untrue....

so acanthurus, i am a capitalist through and through.

In fact, good on anyone who makes money on it... i am simply putting forward my analysis on the whole "its not a money making venture" as it could be and im sure has been for a honeymoon period.

[Insect Direct]

Insects direct:

First of all, - i was not targetting specifics. I will guarantee that if not all , most of people who sell BDs or reptiles or fish on TM dont pay tax on profits. Denying that would be naive. Insect direct, I dont sell fish for profit.... I dont breed fish for profit, tried but too impatient....what can i say, i am a collector at heart... not a propagator/breeder.... we are different breeds of hobbyists.

Second of all, I NEVER IN ANYTIME SAID IT IS EASY to breed BDs.

in fact, i never really tried, imt oo impatient.

In fact i have never tried to breed reptiles, trying with leos - but no luck yet. they are jsut getting of age - also i want a big colony, not to sell at all in fact.

I dont believe leopard geckos is in astage where you can make money now - seling it is difficult now not like 1 to 2 years ago. which proves my point. LFS and Owners selling them for 800 each or so, half of what i paid for - and cannot sell them fast enough.

Here you go look at your video http://www.youtube.com/user/henward888# ... wk38pcLOfM

If thats not trying to breed I dont know what is. Shes undersize imo but whatever.

You say your a collector, love animals. You spend good money on animals, try to get male and female. Good on you, but if it was true what you say, then why on earth skimp on the food, feed the cheapest food there is (mealworms). If you were in it for the love surely you would be happy to spend good money on the food aswel.

Anyway just trying to make a point, Im sure it will go straight over your head. I dont have time to read the rest of your post, will go do some work and maybe justify a reply later.

[alanmin4304]

Lets get some figures right:

I do pay tax on reptiles, fish and plants.

Leps costing $1500 a year ago are not selling at $600 today and since they only lay 2 eggs/clutch and not many clutches they are not as prolific as beardies I would doubt that anyone will make any money from them one year after top dollar. Making it even less profitable is the tendancy for people to sell wholesale to not advertise that they have them. It is likely that the wholesale price would be around $300

[acanthurus]

Sorry Henward but isn't your post above a complete backflip on what you were saying in previous posts? If you have no problem with people making some money to fund their hobby then why do you keep bringing it up?

[henward]

Hi insect direct, id ont know what video that is i dont have access to you tube right now.

The only video i have with breeding are leopard geckos. and i intro'd them when they wre more than a year old, and jsut gonna try to mate them thsi summer. I will not sel,l babies unless i get surplus males.... i want to keep a colony of them in my large tank.

I am a collector ID. i dotn knwo what you have against me.

I bred mealies for my fish - they are good for colouration of arowanas.

I bred mealworms for Leopards, also i breed locust, i also feed occasional wax moth.

i cut load mealworms wtih fish flakes andpellets, veges to ensure maximum nutrition.

My leopard geckos are no way mistreated if thats what you are implying and dont know why you would imply such a thing -

when i feed my fish, i feed extremelygood food.

I probably spend more on food for my fish than most people on here - i have even parallel imported very expensive food for my fish to ensure maximum nutrition.

when i invest in an animal, such as an arowana for $1500 or leopard geckos for $1500..... i tend to want to take care of them well... so i disagree about the care i give my reptiles ID.

Mealworms is not a bad food...... msot breeders In the US and UK that produce massive amounts and great specimens feed mealworms too. Gutloaded with fish flakes and veges as i do. thats where i got the idea from.

........ so i dont know what you are on about.

the beardies i got a female also.....i was thinking of breeding but like i said, too lazy! but it was nice seeing a male and female so they had a companion and the displays were cool.

I fed them mealies, wx moth, locusts, crickets, veges..... i dont see whats wrong with that

[alanmin4304]

Mealworms are high in fat and are not good as a main diet.