acanthurus Posted September 19, 2010 Report Share Posted September 19, 2010 (moved from lizard pics thread) It is a shame that the nature of this hobby is one that requires a certain level of secrecy, even on behalf of the law makers. How many of you have asked for a simple list of what is allowed? Im sure that most of you who have been in this hobby in NZ for any amount of time would admit to considering keeping or even actively seaking animals that have an uncertain status. In doing so we are exposing ourselves to a legal grey area. For the sake of arguement lets say someone does choose to keep an animal that has an undetermined status. Are they engaging in something that by definition is illegal? No. Could they in doing so be charged and convited of a crime? Yes. This is compounded by the fact that many sellers are also gaurded about their identity (and therefore sell anonymously) for the same reasons posted above. A good example of this was in the recent white tree from case (that some of you may have heard of ). In this case the basis of one of the chrages was that while the frogs were not defined as illegal, the accused should have known that they were anyway. There was documented evidence of the accused asking MAF on more than one occasion to define what animals are legal. The frogs were declared an unwanted organism (i.e. defined as illegal) 3 months after they were confiscated. One of the main reasons for this delay was that the experts that MAF employed could not agree on if they should be here or not. Despite this fact MAF went forward with the charges as they stood. I challenge anyone to come up with another example from anywhere else other than those that fall under MAFs jurisdiction where this would be allowed to take place. It must be rememberd that MAF in many ways have more powers than the police. They are allowed to search your home without a warrant and do not seem to be as answerable to their shortcomings. It also must be remembered that many of their jobs are outcome based i.e.they must be seen to be actively convicting people to justify their existence. I'm sure that it is this pressure to perform that causes them to push forward (at great expense to the public) with charges that have no actual legal backing. Normally this would simply not stand, but you must realise they also have the power to make the laws under which they operate (once again not even the police have this power). As has been seen on more than one occasion they tend to make these laws during the course of an investigation in order to secure a conviction. We should all be very worried about the future of our hobby, and unless someone is willing to put themselves on the line, I cannot see things improving any time soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcs Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 It is a load of crap isnt it. Ive asked MAF people personally about what reptiles are allowed and they couldnt answer me. Maybe perhaps if a reptile has uncertain status, yet if they were brought in there was a HEAP of money to be made and MAF get cut in then thats when they get let in?? who knows?!. Everything is shrouded in such secrecy in grey that conspiricies arent far fetched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navarre Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 I have done the same and even seen a list that was supposed to be a draft approved "allowable" animals list that would blow your socks off that was 3 years ago and still I wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcs Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 So from what I gather the process is as follows when looking to get a species in: >Ask MAF it is allowed, dont get a yes or no answer. >So you bring the animal in, probably at great cost. >MAF review on a case by case basis months after you'd brought the animal in. >Regardless of wether it is in a suitable enclosure, clued up owner etc.. animal gets confiscated and destroyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 the record keeping of permits for importation of reptiles pre 1995 is basically non existent this has created the grey area thats too hard for maf to deal with so basically now it is guilty until you prove innocence or that the reptile was in private hands in nz pre 1995 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTM Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 As you said though, who dares take someone that changes the rules and then says "see you broke the rules". It's like playing a 5 year old at a new board game.... The sad reality is that over time we will slowly end up with only a couple of different species that are so common now (i.e. beardies, red ears, etc) while those that are here, but not common slowly die out. The true stupidity of it all, is that the vast majority of these animals would have no chance of establishing breeding groups here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insect Direct Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 I would love to see a list. Closest thing to a list that I've seen is on the NZHS website and thats not even worth looking at. Importing should be opened up again, just like fish, do a risk assessment on each species (or whatever they do) then just test for disease, quarantine etc. Would mean less demand for smuggling, less risk of disease. so basically now it is guilty until you prove innocence or that the reptile was in private hands in nz pre 1995Even if you can do the above it would seem even then your not always safe. :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 Even if you can do the above it would seem even then your not always safe. :-? do you mean the whites tree frog case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insect Direct Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 Those frogs were here well and truly prior to 1995. Apparently there was even paper work for the iguanas that faced a similar fate a few years ago...how true that is I do not know.. hmmm I assume we can speak of frogs, theyre not reptile's but close enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 at the time the only paperwork for iguanas was in containment at Napier that permit was only found by maf by accident yes the frogs were here previously, it was the origin of those particular frogs that was in question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 There is with some people confusion over the status of the animal being in NZ. The paper work may be available for an animal to be legally imported but to be kept in confinement in a zoo or similar, but that does not mean that they can be legally kept in private hands without that paperwork. It would be great for Maf to get a decent system going but it is probably easier for them the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acanthurus Posted September 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 I think that it true that it probably is easier, but if this is the poorly defined system they choose then they shouldnt keep pointing fingers and looking around in amazement when keepers operate under the haze this system creates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcs Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 Its not going to stop the extortionists who try to rip everyone off. I dont mind paying a bit more for something new and/or rare, but at some of the prices it is extortion, and they are making a huge margin. Leopard geckos for instance, equivalent of $60 in the UK, how much were they recently, nearly $1000. get a grip. Would hate to think whatll happen to the first chameleons or iggys if they ever come in. Its just as bad for the hobby as the whole MAF thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acanthurus Posted September 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 I think you have to appreciate the expence involved in locating and establishing a breeding group of animals. You can't blame some one for trying to make their money back. I can't answer for the leopard geckos, but I did seriously think about buying the original group of bearded dragons when they were offered (indirectly) for sale through a certain pet store in Auckland circa 2000. Lets just say the price asked was prohibitive. Once they had been bred they young were offered for sale at a reduced price, and over the years the price has dropped from there. I'm sure the same will happen with the leopards. Its simple supply and demand. When there are few available and everyone wants them only those who are willing to pay a premium will get them. In turn those who get in first are likely to get the best value for their offspring. Those who are not willing to pay the price can simply wait a few years for the price to drop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insect Direct Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 Its not going to stop the extortionists who try to rip everyone off. I dont mind paying a bit more for something new and/or rare, but at some of the prices it is extortion, and they are making a huge margin. Leopard geckos for instance, equivalent of $60 in the UK, how much were they recently, nearly $1000. get a grip. Would hate to think whatll happen to the first chameleons or iggys if they ever come in. Its just as bad for the hobby as the whole MAF thing. People that complain about prices really make me laugh. Often they're the one's who want to also make money out of it and or think people who breed reptiles are making a fortune lol. By the time they actually buy, what little money there was to be made is no longer there. Sometimes you have to actually spend money to make money. Not rocket science. For those who dont want to make a return, wait a few years then get your pet. No one's got a gun to your head, your money you choose. + NZ market is tiny, doesnt even compare in the slightest to the UK. On the other hand, if imports were aloud, prices likely will be more reasonable. Or maybe they wont, importers need to make a profit to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acanthurus Posted September 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 Another thing to consider is the potential risk involved establishing a new species in the hobby. As we have ascertained there is never any guarantee that MAF won't step in. Even those species that have no doubt over their origins are at risk of being declared unwanted organisms. You have to be thankful to those people that we have many of the species we have available today, and that 10 years ago not even bluetongues were openly available for sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcs Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 People that complain about prices really make me laugh. Often they're the one's who want to also make money out of it and or think people who breed reptiles are making a fortune lol. By the time they actually buy, what little money there was to be made is no longer there. Sometimes you have to actually spend money to make money. Not rocket science. For those who dont want to make a return, wait a few years then get your pet. No one's got a gun to your head, your money you choose. + NZ market is tiny, doesnt even compare in the slightest to the UK. On the other hand, if imports were aloud, prices likely will be more reasonable. Or maybe they wont, importers need to make a profit to. Market size makes no difference IMHO. The world is actually a small place in regards to such things. I dont mind people making a profit, just not a huge one. I know the wholesale price of the leos that ended up in a shop, so i know the shop is looking to make a heap - the importer/breeder doesnt even come into that. Trust me i know there isnt money to be made in breeding reptiles, though beardies are a good example - prices are reasonable now, and they are easy enough to breed (and breed often enough) to still easily cover costs and still put enough in there back pocket as a pat on the back for increasing reptile keeping in NZ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 I think a year ago the leps were being sold on Trademe at 1.5K for babies and I think the cheapest on trademe at the moment is about $600 so it wont take long for them to settle down in price. However, I paid $200 for a dozen albino tadpoles and was offered a froglette a few days ago at $999. They will settle as well but it may take a little longer. Supply and demand as the man said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
repto Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 the main difference is the people who breed for the animals and the challenge of doing it and the others that may have the same passion but with the other motive of making money,lots of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acanthurus Posted September 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 Can you name one person who made money and lots of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acanthurus Posted September 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 Sorry, please dont read that I want some actual names. My point is that it is a myth that there is huge amounts of money to be made in this hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 not a myth when you have a fair idea of animals sold and price they were sold at easy to make an estimation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
repto Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 i could name a few.I know a few more that have the potential but either give things to worthy people or swap for other species. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 You cannot directly compare overseas markets to NZ. If NZ was part of the Euro and conveniently located between France and England, you could have gone for your life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 You cannot directly compare overseas markets to NZ. If NZ was part of the Euro and conveniently located between France and England, you could have gone for your life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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