Sold a pair of fish to a guy, they died, and now he wants...

[breakaway]

"a way to settle the matter peacefully".

i.e., his money back

The fish in question were a pair of imported german blue rams at HFF. Retail value of about $100 for the pair. They were living happily in my established 200L community aquarium (Which I have now turned into a puffer only species tank after selling everything off)

Fish were living happily eating bloodworms in my tank. The guy picked up the fish, and they were fine. After he took them home, and put them in his tank (Unsure if he acclimatised them properly), he expressed concern that the fish was 'hiding'. I asked him to check pH, Nitrite, Nitrate, Ammonie etc. To this, his reply was:

"Not sure what it was but hopefully they will both be fine. Will check out my water parameters although I think they're fine (hopefully)."

Well, looks like they weren't, and apparently the fish lost color and eventually died. While I feel sorry for his loss, I can't seem to find why he thinks I'm somehow responsible. This is not my fault! Anyone been in this situation before? Whats the protocol with hobbyist-hobbyist trade when fish die? We didn't agree on anything prior because the fish were healthy.

[smidey]

how long did you have them?

[Scottie841]

Just tell him they were happy when they left and try to explain to him that buying fish privately has its risks and sometimes fish dont like the change in environment and dont survive in their new home.

The big thing is to keep calm and dont talk down to him

[breakaway]

how long did you have them?

22 Jan 2010 to 12 March 2010 (I'm extremely meticulous about my fish and keep an excel files with all relevant dates / costs and parameter details.)

He now claims that his water parameters are fine although he didn't report them to me when I originally asked.

[smidey]

you had them long enough to prove they were fine, i would not be refunding.

[breakaway]

And I'd like to mention that the fish died 2 weeks after he had them. He said on the first day that he added them he noticed some loss of colouration and 'wierd behaviour' from the male. This is pretty normal though isn't it? Because fish would be stressed from having been moved and all. He then reported that they came right, and 2 weeks later, this.

[livingart]

before i sell fish i try to make sure the person knows how to float off properly, water parameter testing, how long their tank has been setup etc

you can only rely on their honesty though

if they were healthy in my tank and died straight away in theirs i would put it down to not enough acclaimatisation or vast difference in water parameters

if they die a week or so later i believe it is the other persons responsibility

[smidey]

that is rediculous really, not your issue IMO

[phoenix44]

Your legal liability as a private seller stopped when those fish left your door.

Fish die sometimes and there is nothing that can be done about a dead fish.

[smidey]

i have replaced fry that died that i have supplied in the past but that was only as i had more to give, i would be trying for a sensible & peaceful resolution.

[Caryl]

After two weeks? Not your fault. Sounds like a case of new owner, lack of knowledge.

[Aquila]

Exactly, you are protected as a private seller under those rights. He was happy with the fish and took them from you. Once they leave your door they are no longer your responsibility, even if they died the next day. He could have shaken/dropped the bag as far as you know. More likely, he placed the fish in a tank that was newly set up with no biological filter and the ammonia fluctuated over those 2 weeks.

-

Your legal liability as a private seller stopped when those fish left your door.

Fish die sometimes and there is nothing that can be done about a dead fish.

[HaNs]

Not your fault. Sounds like a case of new owner, lack of knowledge.

This

[firenzenz]

After two weeks? Not your fault. Sounds like a case of new owner, lack of knowledge.

Agreed.

Rams are not a fish for beginners, and not a fish you should just 'plop' from one environment to another.

The best any of us can do is be fair minded in such cases, and the fact you are even questioning your liability in this situation shows you are.

I have done the same as Smidey in as much as replacing fry/juvies if they have perished quickly after sale, but that was because I had extra fry to give, and believe in the benefit of doubt.

On the other hand. I have had the situation where fish already paid for have arrived to me by courier in over crowded leaky bags,males in with females, 1/2 the fish almost dead, the other 1/2 barely moving, and was told in time by seller that I had clearly done something wrong in acclimatizing them so no refund or replacement fish.

Funny how quickly the focus of fish who would be pets invariably turn into "Lost money" when dead- to seller or buyer

You never can tell I guess.

I think LA's advice is a prudent approach.

[SamH]

Nope, you owe him nothing. I wouldn't expect a refund if I killed the fish and neither should anyone else. Bringing back a sick fish (whitespot, finrot, etc) after a few minutes/hours is a different story. This guy obviously seems new to the game, perhaps offer him a bit of help or advice?

HTH

[Bilbo]

"a way to settle the matter peacefully". i.e., his money back

If those where his words then that sounds like "Do what I want or else"

IMO you have no obligation to them at all and you shouldn’t back down or you are just going to show them that its easier to yell than to learn.

Its funny that you came here because extinguished his threat by going public first.

[ryanjury]

I agree with all the above there should be no refund especially for something like a ram, if they fish were healthy and happy when they left your place then it is fine..

I like Smidey have replaced fry that have died a short time after I have sold them, I know they were healthy when I sold them and it was very likely the person buying did something wrong but I have fry to give and as a hobbyiest I hate loosing fish so know what the person would be going through.

But nothing to do in this case except for say you are sorry to hear they died but they were healthy when they left your place

Really sorry to hear that a pair of those amazing fish has died without any offspring

[Moya]

Most LS I know have the following refund policy: if you've had the fish for 24hours or less and it dies, and your water parameters come up clear, then the fish gets replaced. I think this is a reasonable offer, and possibly one that could be applied to private fish sales too. Any greater period than 24hours, ie the two weeks that your customer had his, just leaves far too large a window. It could have been anything. If a customer was to buy a fish from an LFS and have it die two weeks later of whitespot, the LFS would not be held accountable. Its just a pity for this guy that whatever killed his fish was not noticed fast enough for him to act on.

[breakaway]

According to the buyer, after he bought the fish and took them home, he immediately emailed me concerned that they looked 'skinny'.

Can someone experienced check my youtube video and tell me if these fish look 'skinny'?

Apparently after he added them to his tank, he found they got skinnier and skinnier, at which point he isolated them and despite being fed a 'range of fish foods', the male eventually died, but the female is still okay apparently.

There are simply too many variables for me to blindly claim this to be my responsibility. I didn't sell him sick fish - they were 100% okay when he picked them up, and he could see this. He did report them to be quite shy and not as bright as they were when he picked them up after he introduced them to his tank - but this is usual behaviour - fish are freaked by the move / new environment and take a couple of weeks to recover. Have experienced this many times myself.

[SamH]

Can someone experienced check my youtube video and tell me if these fish look 'skinny'?

That fish looks fine, not fat but certainly swimming around as normal. Perhaps the buyer was unaware that Rams are sensitive fish?

Nice hairgrass BTW, I'd split it up more if you want the carpet effect 8)

[Nymox]

They look good to me, definetly not skinny. They look happy too, you've done nothing wrong, he will have just thrown them in his tank without acclimatizing them properly. I think the only thing you can do it let him know what steps to take when he gets new fish in the future, so this doesnt happen again.

[Aquila]

To be honest, they do look a bit skinny (slightly concave stomach). Problem is, he accepted the state of the fish when we went through with the transaction at your doorstep.

I would have personally backed out of the trade once I saw the fish in person ONLY because I've had a pretty bad experience with some electric blue rams which i got from the LFS wasting away slowly (I learned my lesson). I managed to save 1 of the three i bought but the other 2 were not responding to any of the treatments i tried (prazi, metro, garlic, etc)...but again I didn't not blame the LFS, i was more disappointed with the supplier. I have since bought 2 more rams from the latest stock that came through because they looked amazing! A marked improvement from the previous batches and i took my chances with them. I even got a pair which have already spawned...and are putting on weight rather than losing it.

But anyways, as you stated...within 2 weeks there are too many variables that could explain their death. You had them for a long time with no problems, while they deteriorated rapidly in his care.

[ryanjury]

I would say they are slightly skinny too.. But still looking healthy swimming around and actively looking for food. Alot of fish come through the wholesalers etc quite skinny because food costs money, and also the waste (and therefore maintenance) increases when you feed more food..

[alanmin4304]

Perishable goods.

[Adrienne]

After seeing the video I would have quite happily bought these off you as they look fine to me, in fact better than a lot I have seen before. If they then died I would have put it down to the fact that I know I can't keep blue rams (or gold for that matter) alive. Two weeks is longer than any have ever lasted at my house.

You are not responsible once the fish leave your place. You do not know how they have been treated, even what other fish are in their tank, what they have been fed. If they have gone from a well kept tank to one that needs more maintenance that alone imo will be enough to kill them. The fact that one is alive suggests that you didn't sell them sick otherwise they both would have died.