First time caller, long time listener...

[gsveda]

Hi

My name is Gretchen, and my husband and I have just purchased our first serious aquarium. We're planning on having a couple of red finned bullys, some koura (blue ones if we can get them, my local fish shop is trying to hook me up) and a little school of four inanga. We'll also have a single golden apple snail and a couple of little Chinese algae eaters because they're cute.

Our tank is an Aqua One 980, and holds about 215 litres of water. We're going to get a chiller unit to be on the safe side with water temps since Auckland gets quite warm and humid.

We're going the petshop route rather than sourcing anything from the wild, but I'm planning some forays up into the Waitakeres to have a look at streams and learn about the environment in them first hand.

So far I've found tonnes of good information about caring for natives in this forum, but I will undoubtedly be popping in and out asking noob questions, because I'd rather ask an obvious question than accidentally harm one of my little inmates.

Yeah. Nice to meet you

[SamH]

There's an FNZAS radio station?! 8)

It starts with one tank but soon you'll see more fish you like and hence get more tanks. It's called MTS (Multiple Tank Syndrome) and to date, there's been no proven cure for it

[phoenix44]

It's called MTS (Multiple Tank Syndrome) and to date, there's been no proven cure for it

there is a cure. it involves a hammer as one member discovered. not pretty but it works.

WElcome gs veda :bounce:

[MarkLB]

Hi Gretchen and hubby. Welcome to the forums :bounce:

[livingart]

well come

enjoy your time on the board

[N1CK]

there is a cure. it involves a hammer as one member discovered. not pretty but it works.

Welcome gs veda :bounce:

:o *runs and hides all the hammers*

Wecome to the forums as well

[Caryl]

Welcome. I recommend you buy Stella's book when it is published. It will have all you need to know about native fish.

[Romeo]

Smaller Koura will grow up with the fish a lot better. My Koura "Yabbie" has grown up with two Inangas, now they all quite happily co-exist, but Yab does get a bit nippy when she's hungry! When I introduced a new fish to the tank Yab tried it's very best to hunt it down and kill it as rapidly as possible. I think if you start 'em young, they grow up a lot more peaceful.

[gsveda]

So sounds like you are strating a Coldwater tank. Chinese Algae Eaters are Tropical Fish

Hrm, I must have the wrong name for them then. At the fish shop they're just called 'algae eaters' but when I tried to find a picture of them online the site I found them on called them Chinese.

The ones I'm buying are in a cold water tank at the shop - they're teeny tiny and come in gold or brown

[gsveda]

I recommend you buy Stella's book when it is published. It will have all you need to know about native fish.

I have seen mention of her book around the forums, when is it due out?

[gsveda]

Smaller Koura will grow up with the fish a lot better

I'm not sure that I'll have a choice about size, but I'll see if I can get smaller ones. Speaking of which, can you have more than one in a tank, or is that not a good idea?

I would like to have about three of them, but from what I'm reading, that might not work out so well unless I have copious hiding places. Do people only ever have one at a time?

[Caryl]

Those fish are often kept in "cold" tanks because they can cope with cooler temperatures but are not truly cold water fish. They need to be at 18C at least or higher.

Not sure when Stella's book is due out. Printing is being organised at the moment I believe.

[gsveda]

I don't think I want to subject a warm water animal to a cold tank though, so I think I'll cancel the order on those. Are there any other algae eating fish that would be ok to use in a cold tank or are sucker fish all warm water ones?

It's not going to be the same without some little guys boodling around sucking on the glass

[livingart]

get some torrent fish, they won't suck on the glass

but they will boodle around

[alanmin4304]

American flags will go prettycold but I am not sure what they would be comfortable at. They are supposed to be very good at eating algae. The best thing is that they are killies (not to be confused with killers)

[oeminx]

You could also try Chinese Hillstream Loachs. The are ok in temp 16-22 C What temp are you planing to keep your tank at?

[Stella]

Hi Gretchen and welcome! Awesome choice of tank-type

Looks like a good choice of first natives. Bullies and inanga are reasonably robust and adjust with minimal fuss. Redfins are stunning and the behaviours of bullies are fabulous to watch.

How big is your tank? The ground area is the most important size.

Regarding algae, there really isn't much you can do about it in a native tank. Just get used to the idea. I use algae in my tank for two purposes:

1: a small amount makes the stones look 'aged' and real.

2: if it starts getting longer it is telling me I am not doing enough water changes.

The pet shop will want to sell you all sorts of things to clean up algae. I swear by an unused eftpos-style card for the glass (it can't pick up grit and scratch it) and a bath mitt for the rocks!

Torrentfish are awesome but I find they can be a bit sensitive and need a bit more TLC. The fish you have picked are a great start Actually I think bullies are much more active than them.

What plans do you have for cooling over summer?

Yeah, my book is done, and pre-printing :bounce:

[oeminx]

What plans do you have for cooling over summer?

Our tank is an Aqua One 980, and holds about 215 litres of water. We're going to get a chiller unit to be on the safe side with water temps since Auckland gets quite warm and humid.

[Stella]

d'oh :oops: thanks oeminx. The reply box wouldn't let me scroll that far back.

Ok, a search tells me that the dimensions are 98 W x 60 H x 47 D (cm). Sounds likes a good floor area and of course the larger the volume the more stable the conditions. Good

It is deeper than I would normally go for, as most of the action happens on the ground. I would throw in a few more inanga to try and fill up the vertical space. Get six and the schooling behaviour will look more obvious. Also find some nice pieces of wood to add vertical interest and complexity and a ponga frond at the back. The ponga will slowly go brown (we are talking several months here) and it doesn't really rot, but it helps fill in the space and gives background and a different texture. Plants are usually used for this purpose but I don't recommend them in native tanks. Several reasons:

1 your crayfish will destroy them

2 no algae eaters means they will get revolting in no time

3 as you get used to looking at their natural habitat you willsee there are few plants where the fish are, as there is too much current or too little light. If there are plants, most likely they are invasive exotics.

With the crayfish, you can try having several together, but with the caveat that it may not work (someone will likely get harrassed or eaten). While people can and do keep several together, I would rather not get people's hopes up and have them watch one pet kill the other. With the ground area in your tank you could try two and see how you go. Just make sure you have a seriously complex habitat - a serious volume of river rocks and lots of hiding places - and keep them well fed.

Crays can be an issue with the bullies though, they can also get eaten, especially males that are nesting. I find crays over 7cm long (body length: head to tail) become more of a threat. Small crays are preferred, as is matching your cray-size to your bully size. If the bullies are smaller than the cray you are more likely to have trouble.

Similarly make sure your bullies are similar sizes. They are territorial and small ones (especially small males) can get harrassed.

[gsveda]

Just make sure you have a seriously complex habitat - a serious volume of river rocks and lots of hiding places

I was thinking of getting some terracotta pipes and putting them on various angles with stones and wood piled over them, so there are little tunnels for the bullys and koura to explore, as well as getting a big bogwood piece with lots of contours and crevasses.

I'm a bit sad about no plants though - could I at least get away with java moss or something that floats or grows on wood? Going purely native is out the window with the apple snail anyway but I definitely don't want plastic anything. I don't mind replacing plants as they're savaged, but something that lasts a short time would be nice

As far as temperature, what would you recommend? I know everyone says under 20 degrees, but how far under is best?

[Stella]

Actually, smaller holes are better. Just the crevaces you get when piling river stones. The reason is large holes are harder to defend against another fish invading or against predators wanting to eat your eggs or you. Some natives like big holes under stones, but not the ones you are getting.

The crayfish will both eat stuff and uproot things. Very annoying. Romeo has plants with his, he might be able to give you some tips. I have lemna (duckweed) in some of my tanks. It gives a little it of green, some surface variation and I figure it provides a little surface security for the shadow-lurking fish.

Temperature. Anything under 20 degrees. With your chiller I would probably set it at 14/15 degrees, could be lower. They can go much colder (I am doing some public tanks that will have spring water coming in at 10 degrees!).

[Romeo]

Romeo [had] plants with his, he might be able to give you some tips.

I had plants, I've now got half dead Java Moss and a back wall completely covered in horrible algae. But hey, my water params are literally perfect even 2 weeks with no water change - it's not going to win Tank Of The Month, but I'm not complaining!

Crayfish are inquisitive, they will tear everything up just to inspect it. My cray rearranges the bog wood to make her cave darker, moves the filter, tears thermometers off & eats the plastic sucker, and tears plant lead weights off and half eats them. These things are little monsters, that said, they're very neat little pets.

I say your best bet is to do as Stella says, as well as at least considering these ramblings below...

1) Get lots of tall and intricate bog wood and get a fern for the back like Stella suggests.

2) Have a large variation in stone size, plus extra gravel at the bottom for your Koura to pile up. I can move all the gravel to one side of my tank, and yabbie will spread it all out again very eagerly over the next few days.

3) Make lots of tight hiding places for your fish to sleep, as the Koura will hunt them down at night and savage them.

4) DON'T bother with plants, if you decided not to have the Koura then you could have plants, but the cray will purposely destroy them - it entertains them.

5) Not a good idea to have more than one Koura, unless you raise them from tiny sizes. One ends up the dominant cray and lives happily in the tank, the other spends 23 hours a day clawing and leaping at the glass trying to get out. When it's not doing that it's getting attacked by the other.

6) Don't bother "designing" for your Koura, it will NEVER go where you want it to, these things don't seem to think logically at all. Create a perfect cave for it and no doubt it'll dig a new one under the filter.

7) IMPORTANT. Make sure all the heavy stones and bog wood is level on the glass bottom of the tank. So put the big stones/wood in FIRST, before you put in the gravel. More than once have I come into the fishroom to be horrified at the sight of Yabbie pinned under a piece of wood. They excavate all the gravel out from under things, then it topples on top of them!

8) Fine gravel, but not sand, is good for Koura. They're VERY messy, they don't eat per-se, they shred everything infront of their face then slowly inhale it. So most of the food ends up stuck down between the gravel rotting, or sucked up the filter. The finer the gravel the less that gets stuck in the gravel.

9) Don't use water from other tanks. Clean your tank down very well if it's 2nd hand or used already. Algae grows supprisingly well in cold water, and you can't combat it with chemicals as natives are VERY sensitive to any type of additive. Flourish excel will kill natives quite easily I'm told, as most of our natives are either scale-less or invertibrates - neither of which can shed toxins through growing scales.

10) Clean/boil driftwood or stones that you've collected from the local waterways. Don't use water from the local water ways either, it's FILLED with nasty green hair algae which looks terrible. It'll rapidly take over in a fish tank like yours, since yours has a lot of light. Taking rocks/driftwood from their natural environment makes them happier, plus it looks a lot better in a fish tank. Take a look at some of Stella's videos and you'll see a perfect demonstration of this.

11) Don't expect to see your natives for at least 6 months. My Inanga would hide constantly, I never saw them at all, I thought they were dead. One night I slowly pried the door open to see them dancing about the tank beautifully, but as soon as they saw me they scurried off and hid. Today they don't care about the lights, neither does my Koura. They see people as being "Food Bringers", and will come and beg whenever they see someone comming. Though, my cray has terrible eyesight!

That's just a little bit of what I've learned keeping these fascinating creatures :].

http://picasaweb.google.com/bersirc

[Stella]

I say your best bet is to do as Stella says

yeah baby!

I loved reading your points, Romeo, apart from laughing my head off at times, I can remember all your posts over time where you made all our discoveries!

I do think you have the bulldozer cray from hell. My last cray never so much as nudged a stone,but the ones before that would do a bit of DIY now and then. I find they all have quite different personalities, but I think you have given good advice for anyone - you don't know what sort of cray you will get.

They don't eat per-se, they shred everything infront of their face then slowly inhale it

:lol: that is totally what they do!

Adding to the chemicals thing, Heir found that water conditioners were toxic to crays. If you are going to add any chemical (except salt) remove the cray.

11) Don't expect to see your natives for at least 6 months. My Inanga would hide constantly, I never saw them at all, I thought they were dead. One night I slowly pried the door open to see them dancing about the tank beautifully, but as soon as they saw me they scurried off and hid. Today they don't care about the lights, neither does my Koura. They see people as being "Food Bringers", and will come and beg whenever they see someone comming. Though, my cray has terrible eyesight!

Hehehe that is so cute!

Not sure where you had that tank, but I find most natives settle reasonably well if they are used to you being around. Particularly if you feed them slowly, then they do associate you with food. Still trying to convince my shortjaw kokopu that I am not the scariest ogre in existence though...

BTW *all* crays have terrible eyesight. They do most of their things by smell.

[gsveda]

Thanks guys, I'm sponging all your tips up so keep them coming

I'm a bit confused about the water though. If I can't use chemicals in the water, but the natives are sensitive to water conditions, how do I get the water ready for them?

In the past I've had goldfish and stuff like that, so I've always used a water conditioner but I gather that's not going to work well in this case.

I saw a mention somewhere of leaving it in a bucket to let the chlorine gas dissapate, but what about the other stuff in it? Also, with 215 litres capacity I think leaving a day between buckets is going to be a mission

Is it ok to use 'cycle' or will that cause me problems too?

eep

[SamH]

I leave my water straight from the tap out for about an hour. My fish have never complained about that. I do about 1 WC a week total and I have 5 tanks, again, fish aren't complaining.