knowing your fish are pure bred

[livingart]

a discussion on another WTB thread on here had started discussing the genealogy of fish

so thought i would start a thread for thoughts on strains of fish and identification

my thoughts from there

sadly a few years back the record keeping for imported fish was not the best

but a lot of fish came through misidentified by mistake or deliberately to avoid import restrictions

there are the odd sets of fish around that have been kept in a contained breeding program amd so have remained pure

the only way to know for sure they are pure is to breed for a few generations and produce all true to type offspring

[firenzenz]

Add to that the natural desire of people to have something a little Exotic and rare in their tanks.

This can result in fish being elevated to heights that their poor little Hybridised body can hardly bare.

Add to that the few who through ignorance, greed or pure and simple selfish bullheaded refuse to play the game.

IF IN DOUBT, THEN YOU ARE PROBABLY RIGHT TO HAVE DOUBT.

No one is going to get F1 varietals for $8.00 in NZ

[Bilbo]

As purist I like wild colours of almost all fish including discus but trying to get the general public to favor a lightblue/mudyellow version of a cockatoo in favor of a tripple red or a brown discus over a albino yellow snakeskin, for example, just doesnt happen.

How far do we take the purebred argument? Is a new colour change ok as long as the shape stays the same or are longer fins ok too, perhaps a slightly stockier body as well just to make a small change? as so on it goes before to long the tiny changes from cross breeding and line breeding change a severum or midas into a parrot

[livingart]

i like my wild strains too, a comment was passed a while back about "why are all discus now orange"

because it is the "in" colour

[firenzenz]

I think you are talking at a level that most aren't going to connect with.

Line breeding and and Specific Hybrids like Parrots, Flowerhorn etc at the educated and scientific end of the scale.

I think the msg here has more to do with the unfortunate situation of hybridising genus that have many species variant's, perhaps even location variations and are easily bred.

This is most evident in many of the African cichlids. Often in that situation hybrids can indeed be a good looking fish and that can ultimately impact on the few true lines around, or be an excuse for some people to pass them off for something they are not.

[Barrie]

A lot that know me will know that I fight for lines to be kept pure

I keep an eye on trade me for this exact reason (with the fish I keep) so that line remain pure. I am at presant "talking" to TM about this exact thing and may well present it to the commerce commision or fair tradeing to solve the impass.

Pur to me is the same as can be found in the wild and should be preserved at all costs. Cross breeding therefore loosing the pure wild form can be fine but should either never be released to the public or should carry the name aquarium strain. Yes, maybe blue aquarium strain even a date but the aim from all serious breeders should be to keep the strains pure

[livingart]

but the aim from all serious breeders should be to keep the strains pure

this is the crux of the matter, if you are a "serious breeder" then you need to ensure the fish you are passing on are correctly named and pure

fish come in misnamed by the exporter, importer or lfs and then are passed on with this name

the beauty of the fnzas is there are some serious breeders involved who do just that and these forums allow discussion on any problem fish I.D.

as to african cichlids scientific studies have shown that a rocky outcropping can have a variant of a species on it when 50 metres or less away another variant will be present

even 2 sides of the same outcropping can contain 2 or more variants

[Navarre]

Another problem arrises tho when you have more than one colour strain

a good example is the Aulanocara Sp Marleri red =ruben's =red ( but orangey)= bronzy coloured fish

Or hansbaenschi which has, with out a lie, 67000 different shapes and colour morphs

But your points are taken

you Strive for purity (no not that type the other one) and hope for the best

And I see people asking for "pure" guppies...what is a "pure" guppy? One thats not crossed with a molly?

Just thinking out loud..sorry.

Nav

[firenzenz]

As you know I have some Chilumba red Flush

I bought a male 5yrs ago and was my first peacock from Janztens and at the insistence of a mate I bought the other two. At $90.00 per fish i thought this was madness.

A couple of years ago someone for either Kudos or purely money sold off quite a few hybrids named as Chilumba red Flush and within mths there were many disgruntled people out there and No one would trust any red Flush.

Since then I have bred 3 generations of these fish and sold none.

I have given two set of fry away to other people as "controls" and those have gone on to breed true.

Are they Bonafide Aulonocara red flush?- I can't guarantee that although they were imported as that, and no other "post importation common name" has been designated and through time and logical processes I know that this fish at least of pure strain, and thats the best I can do.

If it were about money, my $270.00 would have been far better off getting 5% per annum at the bank.

But I wouldn't have these guys.

[David R]

IF IN DOUBT, THEN YOU ARE PROBABLY RIGHT TO HAVE DOUBT.

No one is going to get F1 varietals for $8.00 in NZ

I'm clueless on peacocks, but I know those are wise words. It is much better to admit you aren't sure than to pass on information that is an educated guess [at best]. Claiming that a fish is a regional variant of a species when it has been captive bred for countless generations is a bit far fetched IMO...

[firenzenz]

Problem is that some are unwilling to take that Approach and in fact seem to want to

"put up their dukes" rather than debate an issue on issue only basis.

Andrew- (most of you know my name)

quote from another thread.

"Wanta quit or keep shooting ya foot off.... " I DONT NAME FISH..AS I ALREADY STATED..."

PHILL COLLIS

PROUD TO PUT MY NAME AND NOT HIDE BEHIND A FORUM.."

In my opinion Phil is breeder that I wouldn't recommend to others based on what I regard as practises

that seem to have nothing valid about them except that he says so.

Perhaps I am alone in this opinion

I believe his own words often contadict themselves and ultimately his goals are dictated by economics.

This is his perogative. I accept and realise that.

But, agreeing with him is not a requirement, and if he takes personal offence to that, then that is regretable.

[livingart]

getting given a name when you purchase fish can be unreliable

a lot of fish are caught by native people with no scientific background, who label a fish with the area it was caught from

this can then become the fishes name from then on

[VinsonMassif]

While I am not a breeder and do not have a vast experience base I want to put in my 2 cents worth.

Genes have the ability to adapt. Species of the same genus may be able to breed in a confined situation, and do.

Most call this hybrid. Some can breed further, others are sterile.

A lot are between cultivated line bred varieties so the difference are purely Visual and aesthetic.

Some people like this ability, others shun it.

But in the wild is this not the way species evolve?

Another question I rarely see put forward in this discussion is:

What is the breeding history of this fish I have in my tank???

At one point it came about from a crossing of two other different types of species of varieties of the same species.

It may have been in the wild (whether it is accepted as not common) or was in an aquarium before your time.

To not acknowledge this seems to lead to a one sided argument where the few line breeders on one side, and a few less knowledgeable/less experienced individuals selling on mixed line offspring.

Dogs are mixed all the time and no one culls the mixed crosses and causes a big stir.

The pure bred breeders still sell their wonderful creatures and the ones who don't care keep mixed breeds.

It is all swings and roundabouts.

[livingart]

yes vinson, this maybe the way the diversity in lake malawi came about originally

and why so many can interbreed freely

[David R]

You're right Vinson, but I think the issue here is what they fish are called, rather than a 'hybrids vs wild types' debate.

[ryanjury]

Some very good points made here, I take the same stance as Barrie on this one we have to avoid these hybrids at all costs so we preserve what little number of pure species we have in NZ.

Phill Collis is someone I advise anyone who asks to stay away from when it comes to africans. He may have got SOME good fish off SOME good breeders but this thread here (viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34665&start=30) pretty much sums up what he does. he will buy a species in the case of this thread he brought some "firebird peacocks" which were labelled as "Al. Baenshi" firstly a contradiction of common (whch means nothing) vs sc name so would tell most of us to stay away. Second dodgy thing is the photo is off the net and supposed to be a good example of what is for sale no mention (or even question) of if the fish were bred in species tank parents purchased from same place at same time etc?

Latest example is of some fish he purchased as "maler island" which is basically a peacock that originates from a collection point around maleri island and is called Aulonocara sp. "Stuartgranti Maleri" we have various strains in nz called red, gold (sunshine) and yellow. All of these fish are quite distinctive as they have blue heads and basically full or a majority of their body fully coloured. All of a sudden these fish (which are supposed to be maleri's) have been renamed Aulonocara stuartgranti (Chirwa Is.) http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/c ... .php?cat=3. They will also no doubt be sold with an awesome photo off the net not photos of the original fish.

My problems with this.

1. He purchased them as maleri why change the name?

2. If they are pretty much all blue they aren't maleri that raises the question of if the breeder knew what he was going or if the fish are hybrids? There are plenty of all blue strains of peacocks that have been passed around under all sorts of names that are mostly hybrids (red flush etc).

End of the day he purchased some fish and has to make money off them so has loosly matched them with a random profile to sell them on. Most of us breeders would have cut our losses bounced the females (to ensure they aren't bred from) and sold/given the males away as display fish. It has happened to me on more than one occasion, which is why I am very very careful where my fish come from now and always view parents or photos of them. Phill if you are reading this I mean nothing personal and understand it is business and the way you want to operate it just doesn't earn you a good name. If you want to justify your naming then take some photos of your fish and post them here http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=14 the guys in here know their fish and will help you out.

Just in case everyone didn't know my name is Ryan Jury and I am hiding behind nothing just very passionate about my fish and their future in NZ, and also hate seeing people being ripped off.

[Navarre]

without getting into who you should buy fish from ...or not...as that is a matter of opinion....!

as breeders of fish I shall misquote you a line from an article from from a famous breeder of bull terriers

"the abscence of a given fault does not nessecarily mean the pressence of the corrisponding virtue"

he also goes on to say that "we as breeders are the very guardians of the breed."

Sorry for the typos but I have opened the first bottle of this seasons apple cider for the first time tonight and it is rather good....lol

I take this to mean that as a breeder of Anything i do my best to ensure that it is healthy and of a genuine nature and dispostion.

this applies to my dogs ( boxtonandtenille.com) or my fish.

this applies to all my dealings..fishy or otherwise.

These are two different things in the realm of ethics ie are what i am selling to you what I say they are and are they what I am calling them?

If i sell you a fish and it is not what I tell you then I will replace it or refund it

This is different than if you come to my place and I sell you a M Intteruptus but it is really a Melanochromis of unknown orign even tho I have had it for a decade and it breeds true.

These are your arguements here.

I would buy a red flush off of one of you but not the other that is my choice but if I buy a fish from you I expect it to be breeding true and not other wise.

It takes alot to admit your mistake but those that do so gain respect in the eyes of our peers and that takes a great deal of courage.

What LA is suggesting is paramount to a register of purebreed fish and with the draconian laws enforced by MAF that will never happen and if it does then things will soon go the way of the various herpts that are here already

appologies once again but I sell what I say I do and I stand beside my product...or I fix it if there is a problem.

I am only as good as my word...are you as good as yours???

We are the gaurdians of our chosen breeds of fish we are only as good as them and visa versa

[spoon]

without getting into who you should buy fish from ...or not...as that is a matter of opinion....!

as breeders of fish I shall misquote you a line from an article from from a famous breeder of bull terriers

"the abscence of a given fault does not nessecarily mean the pressence of the corrisponding virtue"

he also goes on to say that "we as breeders are the very guardians of the breed."

Sorry for the typos but I have opened the first bottle of this seasons apple cider for the first time tonight and it is rather good....lol

I take this to mean that as a breeder of Anything i do my best to ensure that it is healthy and of a genuine nature and dispostion.

this applies to my dogs ( boxtonandtenille.com) or my fish.

this applies to all my dealings..fishy or otherwise.

These are two different things in the realm of ethics ie are what i am selling to you what I say they are and are they what I am calling them?

If i sell you a fish and it is not what I tell you then I will replace it or refund it

This is different than if you come to my place and I sell you a M Intteruptus but it is really a Melanochromis of unknown orign even tho I have had it for a decade and it breeds true.

These are your arguements here.

I would buy a red flush off of one of you but not the other that is my choice but if I buy a fish from you I expect it to be breeding true and not other wise.

It takes alot to admit your mistake but those that do so gain respect in the eyes of our peers and that takes a great deal of courage.

What LA is suggesting is paramount to a register of purebreed fish and with the draconian laws enforced by MAF that will never happen and if it does then things will soon go the way of the various herpts that are here already

appologies once again but I sell what I say I do and I stand beside my product...or I fix it if there is a problem.

I am only as good as my word...are you as good as yours???

We are the gaurdians of our chosen breeds of fish we are only as good as them and visa versa

i have to say thats well said,

though i do like the fish in question here, and i would buy them even if they were unknown species or a hybrid .

but to see a similar looking fish on the net that seems to have an exotic name or you dont know for sure what the fish is and to sell it as the nearest thing that resembles it is plain wrong . i see it as all about honesty.. dont waste peoples time who are looking to breed to keep the strains true they are the future of this hobby.

even if the fish was listed as unknown peacock possibbly "blahblahblah" surely the apperance of the fish would do more than enough to entice buyers like me who are not breeding fish.

for example i brought a blue melanochromis from navarre , i did not know much about africans then. im not sure wether its a maingaro or a johannii or something else again, its a beautiful fish .

BUT heres the thing it wasnt sold to me as a maingaro or a johannii it was sold to me honestly as a melanochromis " im not 100% sure of what it is" there is nothing wrong with doing this just be honest its not just a case of calling chips french fries here

[new zealand discus man]

Problem is that some are unwilling to take that Approach and in fact seem to want to

"put up their dukes" rather than debate an issue on issue only basis.

Andrew- (most of you know my name)

quote from another thread.

"Wanta quit or keep shooting ya foot off.... " I DONT NAME FISH..AS I ALREADY STATED..."

PHILL COLLIS

PROUD TO PUT MY NAME AND NOT HIDE BEHIND A FORUM.."

In my opinion Phil is breeder that I wouldn't recommend to others based on what I regard as practises

that seem to have nothing valid about them except that he says so.

Perhaps I am alone in this opinion

I believe his own words often contadict themselves and ultimately his goals are dictated by economics.

This is his perogative. I accept and realise that.

But, agreeing with him is not a requirement, and if he takes personal offence to that, then that is regretable.

Just remember you started this line..Also why did you not put the link to the Firebird Peacocks...?

If i remember you might be the person that 2 or so years ago purchased some of my Peru Cats and doubt if you or others have ever been here ever since..

To wild Collections..Not done slap hazard but by exporters that know what they are doing..Becides there business has to be true or go broke..

Also the peacocks etc if x breeds will not breed true but give all sorts..All that i have here show all young off spring are the same but the Red Peacocks from wellington are showing difference in three so far..Just chucked them together and sold them..Dont matter i can sort out when adults in a few months....Phill

[livingart]

just be honest its not just a case of calling chips french fries here

or pomme frites

integrity

1. Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.

2. The state of being unimpaired; soundness.

3. The quality or condition of being whole or undivided; completeness.

some have it, some don't

well said navarre

this forum basically acts as a breeding register of sorts with a lot of ethical breeders present

your average buyer on TM just wants a pretty fish, there is the odd young passionate person who wants to start breeding

hopefully they find their way onto here

[livingart]

To wild Collections..Not done slap hazard but by exporters that know what they are doing..Becides there business has to be true or go broke..

Also the peacocks etc if x breeds will not breed true but give all sorts..All that i have here show all young off spring are the same but the Red Peacocks from wellington are showing difference in three so far..Just chucked them together and sold them..Dont matter i can sort out when adults in a few months....Phill

in the great scheme of exporting fish nz is but a mote in gods eye and i know of exporters overseas who have said once the fish is on the plane it can't be sent back

true first generation of xbreds will not breed true 100%,

i have had line bred 2nd generation breed true 100%, then throw variants in the next generation

so with the peacocks from wellington did the seller chuck them together and you are waiting until they become adults to sort them out?

[bulldogod]

firenzenz , you are not alone in that opinion.

[Discusguru]

firenzenz , you are not alone in that opinion.

and you can add me to the list too

ron

[Dixon1990]

and you can add me to the list too

ron

me too please

[phoenix44]

I wouldnt mind buying a hybrid - or any other weird looking fish for that matter, as long as it visually appealed to me. BUT

I would be very very ticked off if i bought it as a certain species (name or otherwise) and it turned out to be something else.

I think the issue here is more the fact that say someone like "bob off trademe" (bob is a random name) buys a nice looking male something or the other to breed with his female of the same species. then bob sells the babies as; what ever he is certain it is - because he bought it as that fish so it must be that fish. that's where the problems start.

we cant just make up a name cause it sounds cool, or it sounds right.

if in doubt just say its a peacock of some description, or a tiger pleco of some sort.

Any one here who has bought fancy plecos off the lists knows what you buy off the list and what they turn out to be are many many times are two completely different things!

its sad. it really is.

we only have so much in NZ and so we should try our best to keep what we have.

Again, Im not against hybrids, but i am against mislabelling.