Barrie Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 many many moons ago, my family imported the silver possum and blackbird to the Dunedin area. The silver possum was introduced for the fur industry but the mistake was made by allowing a few out as pets... these bred with the already established possum and added to the problem. I myself have imported racing pigeons from Australia on many occasions untill they were stopped due to Newcastles disease in Oz.... Interesting that Newcastles disease is and has never been found in pigeons but I totally support MAFs decision as it may possibly become a carrier. Every time those racing pigeons were imported, there were droppings and seed (the droppings also contained seed) that were on the floor of the containers. These are all possible causes of disease and unwanted plants here. In those days, we had to not allow the birds to come in contact with any other birds for 30 days. Although we never were instructed, I always gathered all the waste and burnt it. With fish, we simply dont know enough about them and what the may possibly be carrying. I would love to see more Killis here and have problems with allowing one specie from one part on Africa but not allowing another from 10 miles away that is different by only say colour but those are the rules and untill they have been totally tested, I agree with them. With Killies, we have lost several that we have had here in the past and I am contacting past members looking for old peat and fish that may well still be arround (with some success I might add) so as a hobby, its up to all of us to breed and keep what we have here going. On the original question about MAF and "disscusing" things with you at the boarder. I always declared everything I had that may possibly have some thing to do with my then hobby (racing pigeons) and was stopped, questioned and serched several times untill I had a proven record. In the end, Boarder control knew that I was doing nothing wrong and were a lot easier on me. I simply want them to be there and keep an eye on whats happening. We cant expect them to make different rules for different things. Im not trying to take sides or anything else, just trying to put my experiances on importing live stock and the fact that they are trying to help us and other things that live here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caper Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 I think I asked this before about trout but I don't know in what thread so please excuse me for asking again. Trout were introduced to your waterways? They weren't always there? How did they get introduced? You didn't always have possums and rabbits?????? Caper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 There used to be these outfits called 'Acclimatisation Societies'. Their point was to introduce lots of critters and plants from 'home' so the settlers had a nice little mini-England. Little thought was given to the effect these things might have. Ok so some of them were for a point (possums and rabbits for food etc) but the main idea was to get them established in the wild, not just farmed. There are *no* native freshwater angling fish, sport fish, coarse fish etc. All trout, salmon, perch, carp, catfish etc etc are introduced. Kokopu and grayling (extinct) would take the line, but didn't 'play' (cruelty to animals!) and didn't have the status element of trout/salmon etc. They also set about exterminating native eels as they believed they threatened trout.... we are talking serious mass slaughter here, and mostly based on incorrect assumptions. A lot of myths remain thanks to these guys. Eels (for a variety of reasons) are now threatened. These introduced 'sport' fish are far, far more protected than native fish (which are really not protected at all). You need special licenses and equipment to be able to catch them. I went spotlighting for natives on sunday and also caught three baby trout. Nothing against interferring with natives but the trout were caught with a net and were undersized (1" long!) therefore theoretically broke two laws :roll: There are also no native land mammals other than two (now extremely rare) bats, and a few marine mammals that spend some time on land (seals, sealions). Caper, I enjoy your different-country questions, like the 'ute' one the other day. BARRIE: Very interesting post! Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 With fish, we simply dont know enough about them and what the may possibly be carrying. I would love to see more Killis here and have problems with allowing one specie from one part on Africa but not allowing another from 10 miles away that is different by only say colour but those are the rules and untill they have been totally tested, I agree with them. Barrie how many of the species already here have been "totally tested"? You have to draw the line somewhere. At the very least you should be able to make a generic dispensation in cases where the members of a genus are all fairly similar, require similar conditions and pose similar risks. Uaru, Corydoras, Apistogramma and Polypterus are all cases where this could be applied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 Barrie how many of the species already here have been "totally tested"? You have to draw the line somewhere. At the very least you should be able to make a generic dispensation in cases where the members of a genus are all fairly similar, require similar conditions and pose similar risks. Uaru, Corydoras, Apistogramma and Polypterus are all cases where this could be applied. Probably none were tested all those years ago and you wont get an argument from me (although I do enjoy debating :oops: ) about letting similar specie from close areas in but the rules are there and have to be respected so while they are there we must observe them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim r Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 There are no possums in England Stella. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 well no :oops: nor a bunch of other things that got introduced... but they were on a roll with introducing things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsmith Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 Alot of fish are here ilegally. Fronts,Cichlisoma, Haps, Auloanocara, paradise fish,hill stream loaches, chocolates (how dare they) D. Comps...just to name a few. Sorry - kinda off topic - if front's aren't allowed...how'd they get here? Why is MAF or whoever ignoring it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DantezGirl Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 they seem to ignore a lot of exotic species that made it here that shouldn't be here and then slap a "unwanted organism" sticker on them when they know very well that they have been here for years and are being traded around the country so i don't get why they don't allow imports even if they say have a limited number that are allowed in every year or few years they also like to pick and choose apparently Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
repto Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 The bullhead catfish was imported and released into the waikato by the auckland aclimatisation society,they were meant to be channel catfish or some edible variety,they got sent the wrong sort and the rest is history?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim r Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 Don't forget the humble mosquito fish which eats everything but mosquito's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 damn those damnbusia :evil: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 What realy gets me is how everything is geared up to protect salmon and trout and nothing is done to protect our unique native fish that they are feeding on. It is all about money. The money from fishing licences that makes the fishing lobby so powerful and the money from tourism for people catching introduced fish. If you did to a cat, dog or bird what people do to trout and salmon you would end up in jail so where are our heads people? Even better people pat themselves on the back for throwing them back so someone else can do it to them again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
repto Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 so true alan,and if koi carp were of the same nature(edible and good sport fish when caught)do you think for one moment they would be on the noxious list? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 I am not against catching fish, in fact I am planning on catching herrings today. Neither am I against shooting pests like rabbits and possums and have in fact shot thousands of them. The herrings will end up as turtle tucker and any trout caught will be put back (yea right). I don't have a problem killing things, just torturing them and culturing them so they can feed on our natives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caper Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 Stella wrote: Caper, I enjoy your different-country questions, like the 'ute' one the other day Thanks :lol: I really appreciate when you folks answer my questions Caper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish_fingers Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 You know how in the US of A if you ask someone if they are a cop working under cover they supposedly have to say if they are or not, otherwise their evidence is invalid...or maybe I have watched too many 'b' grade movies... My question is does that apply in NZ, and if so, who on this forum works for MAF in any form? I have also heard that MAF can access PM's on this site, can an administrator shed some light on this please... I had a wonderful 3 hour interogation by MAF recently after returning from Asia, as did my brother when he returned from Thailand to Perth EDIT - Billaney Also under the 'freedom of information' act apparently a person can request to see the file on him/her held by MAF, is this true? Excuse my paranoia, but no dealing I have ever had with them has proven to me that they are anything but a bunch of dodgy bueracrats lining their own nests at the expense of the truth. If there was finally a decision on what species were legal and a proper permit system introduced than all would be well. I am sick feeling like my hobby is in the blurred grey area when it comes to legality, when MAF can not get their act together, and I know you DOC people agree here too, and a few of you wildlife enforcement people Say what you mean and mean what you say....your thoughts fellow herpetophiles??? Are you sure it was MAF and not Customs, the dark blue uniforms...whom "interview" passengers for such periods. What was the nature of the "interview"? I'm sure if you had done nothing wrong thn you have no real reason to be paranoid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 I don't have a problem killing things, just torturing them and culturing them so they can feed on our natives. Seconded on both points!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim r Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Koi carp are classed as edible fish throughout the world. They also command $1000's in some countries, alas they are worthless here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Are you sure it was MAF and not Customs, the dark blue uniforms...whom "interview" passengers for such periods. What was the nature of the "interview"? I'm sure if you had done nothing wrong thn you have no real reason to be paranoid? If he had done nothing wrong why should he have to put up with 3 hours of interrogation? If they had reasonable cause they should have told him what it was, if not they should pull there heads in. There are too many wannabe cops in NZ, give some one a uniform and they think they have special rights all of a sudden. I was working near a customs storage warehouse recently, would get convoy's of these guys, sunglasses on, speeding past like they owned the road, I could see them thinking "I'm the man" hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 sadly they are human like the rest of us and sometimes authority can go to your head i have dealt with a good couple in the past, just doing their jobs have also met some authoritarian ones (usually the ones with less subject knowledge) makes me wonder how judgement can be passed on so few facts and so much hearsay by ones with power seems innocent until proven guilty is an oldtimers adage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 If he had done nothing wrong why should he have to put up with 3 hours of interrogation? And if he had brought something in and it got out and caused problems then everyone would be annoyed that MAF wasn't doing their job right. Why not make sure someone they see as a potential risk aware that they are being watched and therefore less likely to try bringing something in illegally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted October 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 The simple thing is that a really great system already exists....in a place called OZ. Reptile owners pay a yearly fee depending on the class of reptiles they own (based on difficulty of keeping) as well as small fees when animals are sold interstate. Guess what...this could pay for itself, and the senior officials will be aware of this idea, so the expense arguement dies there. The other thing about this system is that MAF has the right to enter you property during reasonable hours when you are present and check your collection..either to ensure all stock is permitted or to check animal health. I have no problem with this. All owners, breeders and sellers need records forms filled out and submitted detailing births, deaths etc and animals bought or sold. Individual states have their own lists of allowed species..species from other states that can hybridise with a local species are excluded, as are those that could establish readily that are not already present. Maybe this could be used in NZ for native reptiles. I noticed earlier that someone said why keep exotics when you can keep natives? The answer is there is so much difficulty in acquiring native animals and the exotics have character, do not get me wrong the native stuff is cool. Even if you were into the natives instead, you would see be searched and detained. The 'list' is the first thing that needs to be fixed, the last NAF person who drafted it was not aware that Elegans are native, or that Capybara are in fact NOT reptiles. I'll even do if for free!! No more crocodiles that have to kept under the house! At the moment we have a tolerated group of animals, a grey area (depends who you ask and the way the wind is blowing etc), and a these are not allowed at all. It is crazy, get a list of species that could be kept in NZ and not establish a population....pretty basic really...cold blooded...need temps above 80F for 10 weeks to hatch eggs...etc. Then have them legally imported and quarantined. Smuggling stops, keepers happy, no hassles for MAF breeders happy. No more feeling bad for having an interest in reptiles. Cats and Dogs are imported every day...I just want 4 galapalogos tortoises- is that too much to ask? Stella, concerning the exotic/native debacle in New Zealand with freshwater fish species... I will never forget the coarse fishermen (fish for rudd, tench perch etc) complaining about foreigners releasing Koi into 'their lakes' at Kaiaua, Thames...lol, says it all really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted October 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 If he had done nothing wrong why should he have to put up with 3 hours of interrogation? If they had reasonable cause they should have told him what it was, if not they should pull there heads in. There are too many wannabe cops in NZ, give some one a uniform and they thing they have special rights all of a sudden. I was working near a customs storage warehouse recently, would get convoy's of these guys, sunglasses on, speeding past like they owned the road, I could see them thinking "I'm the man" hahaha Exactly, sorry they were customs staff. The guy was arrogant, their reason was 'we noticed in your passport you had been in and out of China to Hong Kong recently a bit (actually just ONCE!!)' Biosecurity = Good, being hassled when you have done nothing wrong and by a wannabe policemen = NAF. Yes I had books about reptiles in my bag....oh my god! All I want is to able to keep stuff without the hassles...why are day geckos not allowed and leopards geckos are? Both are in private hands. Maybe the day geckos will damage our lucrative Watties Peach and Mango Baby food industry by learning how to open glass jars? If anyone knows please let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish_fingers Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 keep in mind Varanophile that Customs have nothing to do with Biosecurity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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