chimera's needs help

[chimera]

thanks mark

[JDM]

i wish you the best of luck dude, with the wife thing and with the tank, tomorrow will be a long day for you, if i wasnt working i would come up and bring my containers to give you a hand....... cof cofff hmmmm i seem to be getting a cold, :lol:

are you thinking you will do a 100% change?

[chimera]

i'll be doing the largest water change physically possible. i opted for a minimum of 50% - but it all depends on what type of storage i can get. i've got another mate with a trailer i could probably borrow and also got a 200 litre drum i could put on the back of it. would be much easier if i can get hold of cracker and borrow his 1,000 litre container on his trailer. then i really could do a 100% water change

Those corals don't look dead... just bleached, they can recover

oh, and layton those ones i posted pic's of are those that could recover. there are many others that are fully white and there is no way they could recover.

[reef]

is it possible the new lights are too much or the photo period is too much for your corals. Could the change in the way u administer your carbon have cleaned the water up too much and the corals cant handle that much light

Basically drifty summed it up. The corals have been fried with the extra light and further problems caused by the overuse of carbon which would have let the light penatrate deeper and thus cause uv burn.

Corals would have also basically starved as the extra light would have made them use more energy so they would not have been able to build a protective uv coat.

The other factor is that you are using sodium ballast which overruns the bulbs causing even more light.

Doing a big water change is going to make it worse. My advice would be to reduce the lighting hours and add amino acids.

Here a small article

Effects of Too Much Light

Over-illumination has many potential negative effects, including coral bleaching and UV burning. However, many aquarists do not encounter these obstacles, both because of good acclimation practices and the inherent ability of corals to adapt. Instead, there are other actual effects of “light overkill.†Chief among these is increased temperature due to the light, which can in turn lead to bleaching and other mortality. Another potential threat is the increase in algal growth. It is notable, though, that all of these side-effects can be alleviated with a little know-how: temperature problems are corrected by raising the lamps and adding fans (or even a chiller) and many articles and books (all of which are more authoritative than myself) have been written concerning algae control. Why then, did I even mention these aspects of light when they are so easily corrected? The simple answer is that I wish to be complete. Truth is, the biological effects of over-illumination, because they are so easy to correct, are only a small part of the problem (but they are effects which still exist!). The main item which I have a hard time accepting is waste.

I have read many discussion threads questioning whether 250 watts of HQI over a 10 gallon nano-reef is too much. My answer is always the same two-parter: 1) No, it’s not too much, if you raise the light high enough above the tank and watch temperature, but 2) why spend the money when a much cheaper and simpler setup will get the job done just as effectively? Aquarists seem to be of the mindset that more light will always increase health, growth rate, and color. This is true only to a point, and given certain conditions. First, corals need some source of nutrition other than light. Most of the time, this nutrition is provided simply by feeding the fish. However, in tanks with extreme nutrient export relative to import, the corals will actually starve and slowly die (more on that later). It also notable that coral growth rate will “plateau†at a certain point: no matter how much light is added after this point, the coral simply cannot grow faster. The color argument is similar: at a certain point, corals will keep their color; a coral that is naturally brown will not turn green under even the most intense light (though it will at one point turn white). So, lighting overkill won’t necessarily harm the aquarium, but it often represents resources –financial and mental – that could be better applied elsewhere. Novices just starting their wonderful journey should especially take heart from this: you do not need incredibly expensive and complex equipment to experience success.

So, to conclude this section, having extremely powerful lighting is not nearly important as having the correct lighting. Sweeping generalizations recommending incredibly intense light for all applications should be avoided, because not every application requires such lighting, and some applications might even suffer from it. At the very least, the use of very powerful light over every reef represents an unnecessary use of resources. Aquarists with a limitless budget, perhaps, can buy 1000 watt metal halides for everything they create (as long as they take sure to use the light correctly). The rest of us can take heart knowing that that such light is needed in only a small portion of all reef applications

Recent research into the manner in which light aggravates the bleaching problem has been reported from Australia. Ove Hoegh-Guldberg describes the toxic effects on corals of receiving an ‘overdose’ of light. Their ability to handle the incoming dose of light seems to be exceeded.

“Normally, increasing light levels will lead to an increased photosynthetic rate up until a point at which the relationship between photosynthesis and light saturates. At relatively high light levels, increasing light leads to an over-reduction of the light reactions and production of potentially harmful products such as oxygen free radicals. Oxygen free radicals, if not detoxified by several enzyme systems found in higher plants (and zooxanthellae, Hoegh-Guldberg and Jones 1999) will rapidly lead to cellular damage. In the case of higher plants, failure of the ability of the dark reactions to process photosynthetic energy results in an increased sensitivity to photoinhibition. The over-riding conclusion of the work of Jones et al. (1998) and Hoegh-Guldberg and Jones (1999) is that bleaching is due to a lowering of the sensitivity of zooxanthellae to photoinhibition. Basically, light (which is essential for the high productivity of coral reefs under normal conditions) becomes a liability under conditions of higher than normal temperatures.†(Hoegh-Guldberg 2000)

more info

http://www2.hawaii.edu/~delbeek/reefaq4.html

By placing

corals that have become low-light adapted or light starved for a

period of time, in a brightly lit tank you run the real risk of

light-shock which may damage the coral beyond its capacity to repair

itself.

Another potential problem could be oxygen poisoning. When deeper

water corals are placed under brighter light, their zooxanthellae

produce greater amounts of oxygen. Under these high concentrations

oxygen can easily poison both corals and anemones (Dykens and Shick,

1984; Wilkens and Birkholz, 1986). The response is often for the

coral to quickly expel their zooxanthellae (Wilkens and Birkholz,

1986). Shallow water anemones cope through various mechanisms

including the use of enzymes to break down oxygen, withdrawing their

tentacles, covering their body column with gravel to protect it from

the sun and to seasonally vary the amount and ratio of chlorophyll in

their zooxanthellae to correspond with seasonal changes in light

intensity (Dykens and Shick, 1984). Similar behaviour may exist in

corals.

[reef]

One for layton, i got lost reading it, however main point was.

These results present a case for dynamic photoinhibition within the zooxanthellae of this captive coral, and suggest over-lighting is indeed a possibility in artificial conditions, even if a small-polyped stony coral is photoacclimated to high light intensity.

http://www.livingreefs.com/forums/saltwater-aquarium-articles/408-what-its-worth.html

[chimera]

Cheers reef

The corals have been fried with the extra light

Im not so sure about the light being the sole factor - it definately the ultimate reason but caused because of the fluidised carbon. The lights have been on there for quite some time (4 months+) and things started going very well in the first 3 months. It's only the last month or so where things have gone backwards, coninciding to when the carbon was fluidised (about a month prior to that). Its unlikely that lighting would have caused corals to go really well (coloured up WAY better) then all of a sudden they go backwards

and further problems caused by the overuse of carbon which would have let the light penatrate deeper and thus cause uv burn

obviously the intensity of lighting is the cause - but i think the overuse of carbon is THE sole factor causing the extra clarity thus extra penetration of light and uv burn.

do you think its a good idea that i get some glass covers for the lights too? i was weighing up the +/- of it, looks like it would have helped cut down UV.

[reef]

The lights have been on there for quite some time (4 months+)

Time does fly but problems have been happening slowly and building.

The over use of carbon would have also stripped all the minerals from the tank and allowing light to penetrate deeper thus shocking the coral.

Problems were starting as per this thread

http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/1-vt15441.html?postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Its unlikely that lighting would have caused corals to go really well (coloured up WAY better) then all of a sudden they go backwards

This is covered in the articles and i have seen this happen on many tanks with too much light .Corals cant utilise all the light so they start to die to to lack of food. Covered many times by cookie as he has a book that states this.

[reef]

do you think its a good idea that i get some glass covers for the lights too? i was weighing up the +/- of it, looks like it would have helped cut down UV.

Reduce the light hours . The damage has been done. water quality sounds like it is fine so big additional water changes wont help much , also NSW contains too much bacteria which cold cause more problems with weak corals. Councils are testing water each week on auckland beaches due to high bacteria count from storm water and sewage. Maybe just change 10% to add back some lost minerals etc.

The corals will need less light so they can utilise energy on repairing themselves.

Add amino acids to aid healing

[puttputt]

offer still stands Chimera if you want to throw a couple of corals in my tank for safe keeping.

[chimera]

offer still stands Chimera if you want to throw a couple of corals in my tank for safe keeping.

thanks mate, might take you up on that offer... just incase. dont want to lose anymore than i have too!

[Drifty]

my bro will look after some frags for u also he is just up the road from u in orewa

[jetskisteve]

Hows his tank looking now drifty?

[Drifty]

looks really good, he has good growth and really nice colours. Must get him to post some photos

[wasp]

When I went through a bad patch when I changed tanks, some of the corals looked like they might die & I farmed them out to other people, best thing I did, people are happy to help.

[chimera]

cool. someone close by or driving past would be best - i got wifey and kids to look after at the mo!

[Krama]

James

Ive got alot of room in my tank, and you are welcome to use it, but I am not sure how good my set up is, I would hate to be a case of of the cure being worse than the illness. You are welcome to have a look at what I have got etc.

I am also very happy to pick things up, but you may rather advise to where I should put them in the tank etc for their own sake.

You would also be able to come and visit anytime you liked...

MJ

[jetskisteve]

Your setup is sweet all the good gear!

[cookie extreme]

all the good gear

good gear doesn't neccessary make a good tank.

money alone does no grow corals or keep them alive for that instance. knowledge does! otherwise every deltec tank would be awesome. but i have to admit that good gear would help a lot. 8)

[chimera]

cracker is kindly loaning me his trailer and container tomorrow as it's high tide around lunch time. water change seems the most obvious solution to replenish what the carbon has stripped out of the water column. also several acro's are now sitting in shaneo's tank. not concerned about colours going backwards, just want them to survive! thanks again for the offer mark.

i will try a 50% water change tomorrow if possible and leave the rest on standby. the 1,000 litre tank i have is only about 800 litres useable coz it sits under my house but slightly lower than the sump, maybe not a major coz all the crap should accumulate at the bottom.

good gear doesn't neccessary make a good tank

absolutely true, but it does make life alot easier when the knowledge is there too

[chimera]

finally managed to collect some saltwater today. got around 750 litres in the 1,000 litre container i borrowed from cracker. im in the middle of "water parameter matching" between the tank and the nsw.

tank is:

temp: 25

salinity: 1.025

pH: 8.22

kH: 10.9

Ca: 440

Mg:1380

nsw is:

temp: 18

salinity: 1.027

pH: 8.23

kH: 6.4

Ca:350

Mg: 1110

cracker also loaned me a 2.4Kw heater which i've put in to bring the temperature up. i also added around 50 litres of RODI water to drop salinity down a bit. pH is almost an exact match which is cool. for everything else, i have to add the following to bring the (800 litres) nsw figures up to match the tank (except i dont have enough mg chloride )

264 grams calcium chloride dihydrate (minimal effect on pH)

11.3 teaspoons of baked baking soda (pH will increase)

1800 grams magnesium chloride hexahydrate

not long to go now and all fingers crossed things start to recover... :-?

[dogmatix]

Hope it works man, good luck

[chimera]

cheers.

i've pretty much lost all but 4 acro's now (one of which is a hydnophora that isnt even phased by the cause) the other 3 have slight signs of bleaching but hanging in there. even a large staghorn is completely bleached. all lps are completely withdrawn.

now that the big water change is done, should i have the lights off completely? should i just leave them on at 3 hours a day?

[cookie extreme]

i would raise them quite a bit and use only the center one. at lower level lighting the algae within the coral should come (brown in colour) back if the bleaching wasn't to severe. shaded area's are great for LPS and they should expand the tissue pretty quickly to reach / get maximum light.

[Fay]

Thats bad news maybe the kids tipped a bottle of bleach in.

hope the water change helps

[chimera]

Thats bad news maybe the kids tipped a bottle of bleach in.

seriously makes me wonder. everytime i go past the tank i have another look around to see if i can find anything that might have been dropped in there :-?