Control

Ira Did you find the progression from one to the other benificial in your learning. Do you think that the knowledge you learn't from one helped you with the other. Aaron.

I'm trying to cover everything and everyone with this. The problem is that people aren't replying in a maner which defines the system they are refering to when they make there coments and some of them are just pointless. People need to stop talking about systems that haven't been listed if you must do so list the system first so there is a referance point for everyone else to put there opinion foward Everyone Can we please get the system lists up so they can be discussed. This is my very point. The list will have quotes telleng people what is best in the system and the problems accociated with the systems. Would this not sort that problem out. Every time it is metioned it tends to be accumponied with "you can't keep tank for less than a certain amount". there are either no spacifics mentioned or they seem to think that the only form of marine tank that can exist is a $4000 and above Sps tank. This is not true and not very helpful. Aaron.

I made that statement with the addition of a filter system and means of keeping it healthy that was more than adequate and would work. I was clearly trying to make a simple point. Do you hate seeing goldfish in small bowls when they swim in large area's of water in there natural environment or do you hate it when you see Nemo's in small tanks when the majority of the time they would normally stay within the confines of there anemone. Correct however A fish only tank can easily run without a skimmer if the stock is kept to the correct level and regular water changes are made, and this is easy for a beginner on a low budget that has access to the ocean. Why should people that can only afford this method be excluded from the information that we can provide? Do you really think that is necessary and fear? Good points has anyone else got an opinion here. We obviously have to come to a decision on this because it will affect the entire layout. My opinion I think that we could make things very complicated if we aren't careful. What we show must be necessary but not over the top. We need to find a good balance. This is what my suggestion was for in the first place. Give them the info. Put a small write up with each regarding the problems and benefits associated with that type of system and tell them what would be best for that type of system. So far the majority of replies have done nothing toward this but confuse the issue. Telling people that you have to spend thousands of dollars because it will make the system more stable doesn't tell them anything that they need to know and is completely pointless. They need all of the info so they can do there best with what they can afford. It is their decision to make not the people in this forum. Ok but that is dependent on if they want rock in the system. Does anyone else have an opinion here? We need more opinions on this too, anyone else. My opinion It could be done but as a separate list for each set-up, and it should be mentioned that it is by no means accurate. This is why I think it should be separate if we do list it there are to many possibilities and variations. Surely a rough list of the type of suitable inhabitants and advice to check prices and availability with their local store would be better. magnus1 Bare with us something intelligent that will help everyone will come of this I hope. I'm beginning to regret that I suggested we do this. Aaron.

chimera Thankyou

For some people a two foot tank system would be all of there money and I don't think they should be denied the information on how to set up a system that will work that they can afford because people think that they should keep out of the hobby if they can't afford to spend thousands of dollars. I'm sorry but I don't believe in discrimination and there is no need for it in this hobby, small systems are easy to maintain if they are done properly. Aaron

Come on reef everyone does that, one if not two pieces at a time without any problems are you telling me that I can't put any more in my tank without completely starting over. Layton Why can you not understand that there is a need for information on all tanks regardless to what your opinion is? Do you really think that providing them with the information of cost and problems related to all possible set-ups so they can see the advantage of one system compared to another and try to do the best they can with their budget is something that should be kept away from people. I don't see why you think this is rubbish and seem to find it so hard to comprehend. Everyone Blurting out your opinions is not going to get this finished. Put any problems that may arise in the systems that people come up with in a list and state which one it is for so they can be debated properly before they are added to the list of each system. The issue of stock and rock. I believe that the price of stock should not be added to the set-up cost for the following reasons: It is added after the set-up is put together. It is a progressive thing that can have too much variation in size, quantity and price. I believe the price of rock should not be added because; It may or may not be added all at once depending on budget. There is too much price variation with different types of rock. Not all systems will have it or need it. Please note so no one misquotes me that I said the price should not be added not eventual quantities that would be needed. I take it that every one that thinks there is no place for small tanks with a couple of fish in it believe that my two and a half year old daughters tank that she has in her bedroom which has never failed or killed anything and is very easy to maintain should be replaced with a $3000-$4000 dollar tank. Hhmmm I will have to work out a way to attach her bed to the roof so I can fit the new tank in there. That seems like allot of money to spend on someone that age. Aaron.

That depends on what you define as dead if they haven't been bleached as they use to do many year ago as required. You will have a high level of decay in the rocks. However if you were starting from scratch it would be a good why to spike the system and make it start doing somthing. Aaron

Brilliant Petplanet That make two replies in this post that are useful Ira had the other. My suggestion to improve your list would be to drop the anemone and put some small soft corals like small leathers buttons etc you cannot keep anemones with fluorescents. These should not be added to the cost. We should be showing a system with its rough cost and spec then state what could be kept in it. What they do with that info is up to them. We will also need to have a small write up on each to give information on the maintenance required and problems related to it because they do vary in what they need to keep them healthy. Ira It may be better not to add existing gear, if they have it that’s just a bonus for them and not everyone will be in that situation. Keep stock out of the prices they are things that they add slowly later. Can you come up with something more accurate in this way? Everyone Please put specs in your lists. Ok so far we have a $500 and approx $2500 does anyone have any helpful alterations to them that stays in their budget or a system in another price bracket. Brianemone That depends on what he wants in it and how much stock he plains on putting in it. Rock can be slowly added over time as needed to help the system based on how much stock he wants to put in the tank. It doesn’t have to all be there from the start and allot of people can only afford to do it this way. The biggest problem he has is the lighting. Aaron.

To my knowldge the current rules for live rock state that anything obvious has to be removed and they have to sit dry for three weeks this was a recent change and it doesn't take long to settle them in and are still very much alive inside. The last lot I got which was a while ago was straight out of the box and still wet. Aaron.

Yes there is but the important thing is to make sure that it's not direct and more of a large mass. SPS in the wild can have huge currents flowing through them depending where they are. They live happily along the reef channels as well as the flat areas at the top. Aaron.

I would appreciate it if people would stop deliberately misquoting me. Where did I say that $500 dollars would set up a full reef tank? I specifically said a range in price and a range of different systems and inhabitants. We are all well aware of how much money allot of you have spent and it is not necessary for a beginner to spend that. Are you people deliberately trying to put beginners off the idea of getting started with marines, if so why the more people that have marines the better for everyone. If you think that it is appropriate for a beginner to risk that sort of money on a system when they have nowhere near the skills or knowledge to even run a basic let alone a fully laid out reef system then I suggest you all agree to cover the beginners costs when he realizes that he is in over his head. Besides that if I had a spear $500 dollars I would prove you all wrong with ease. And have already done so in the past. I'm not a "perfect consumer" and would make allot of the gear myself. Are you all suggesting that anyone starting this would not be able to do that? The idea of this was to set up all possibilities for beginners and that has already been clearly stated. Appropriate for what? They would only have poor results if they try to keep the wrong thing in the systems that they have which is what you have suggested they do. If you need $1000 dollars to put a basic saltwater tank together with fish and even a couple of mushrooms and leathers that would run well then I don't think mush of your basic skills. I find this so funny considering how many people show very successful systems that keep SPS's that cost them a quater of that. Dead right, no one should ever tell someone to spend large amounts of money on something they know nothing about. That is an amazingly irresponsible thing to do. They have to learn the basics first. Are you seriously telling us that you would need to spend $4000 to keep some fish alive in saltwater. I can keep a couple of small marines in a goldfish bowl with a small air driven carbon filter and a fortnightly 25% water change. Success of what? Ira Finally something intellegent to make a start with. The RO is only neccssary in some areas. People need to check the local council water readings in there area, they are available. Stick to the systems and just state what they are best suited for. What is the point of this list? For what system would you like to suggest it for? Or are you just being argumentative. People don't have to use salt. The idea is to show how to set up a tank, not how much you can spend on the inhabitants. Pomereef Are you saying that people should spend thousands of dollars on something that they no nothing about. If so would you be happy to except responsibility for the cost when the beginner realizes that the reason every thing turn to crap was because he doesn't know what he's doing and has bitten off more than he can chew. Not true. They would make more money reselling the big systems that people failed with by getting in over their heads. Define the type of reef you are talking about because as it is your statement is completely untrue. And thousands have done so with great success. And allot of the people running the expensive systems have found that yet they still say that you should start at a level that you would not have a hope in @#$ of understanding. Why is this the case? The reason it is hard for us to get allot of what is available is because we are such a small market compared to the US and Europe. Telling people that to learn how to keep marines requires thousands of dollars, which it doesn’t, is not going to increase our market share because you are scaring people away from them. People have kept carols for decades with the same success as anyone else can clam without all the expensive gear that companies try to sell us these days. Aaron

Looking great. Your next investment is a metal halide not an anemone. One has the need for the other. You need to seriously think about what you want your tank to keep in the long term before you decide on the strength of the metal halide. They live very well with a good level of appropriate fluorescent lighting. It sounds like you might not have that, what are you using. Aaron.

Brianemone Brianemone Sorry I thought you were talking about the refugium. No you don't have to use them before the skimmer. Aaron.

Arhh the well loved fly anemony. Lemon Peels love them. They can be a good indicator to the level of nutriants in the tank. If there number stay low all is good. I have only one at the moment and he's been there for along time. Aaron

I had one that was white. it was hairy not smooth shelled. It was pretty much a scavenger and great algae eater. I never had any problems with him. Aaron.

Some fish learn the hard way. I had a frog fish who ate a bird wrasse that was 3 centermetres longer than he was. It was a hell of a site. I regret not taking a picture of it. Aaron.

Buy your own don't hire, not less than a 4kg oil free tank and reg you will need some type of fine needle valve. I don't no where you can get them at your end of NZ. The differance in the cost of filling between sizes is very small so the bigger the tank the better the total cost in the long run, most of the charge is in the service not the gas Aaron

The baffles in the refugium are there to stop eggs etc before they get out. You would be amazed at what gets stopped by them. Aaron.

Petplanet Why , where are we supposed to be. If we do it this way it will take for ever. How about setting it up based on a differant cost basses $ 500 $1000 And so on. Work out the must haves within the budget for each type of tank, fish only, basic reef, advanced reef. State the obvious pro's and con's without trying to confuse people with things that they are better off learning over time with experiance. The important thing is to get them started in the best way bassed on what they can afford. Aaron.

I set up a naro vacume. and once every month I would do a very small amount of carefull vacuming. Not half and half or anything like that but just random, I could see where had I had been last time. The biggest cause for these things to crash is when they get so blocked up with fine debris that they loose all ability to breath. They may be anerobic but they must be able to breath. All anerobic reactors have flow throught the media it may be small but it is still there. Sand beds don't have flow at the bottom which causes buildup of debris this must be periodically removed. They must also be placed after a skimmer, Only refugiums and algae turf scrubbers if you use them are setup before for obvious reason. Aaron.

First we need more people on board We should probably have a free for all and then Debate what should go were. it won't be done quickly and shouldn't be. I think it would be best to do Three; Fish only, Simple reef and Advanced reef. We must include links as well. We also need to make sure that any equipment that we recomend for the basic setups can be can be used in a more advanced system. Obviously there will be some exceptions to that due to cost. Aaron

Phosphorus is used by plants and algae as phosphate which is then comsumed by animals. The problem is to find a balance in a small inviroment. The method with the least impact on the system for removing Phosphates is an algae turf scrubber because the majority of what the algae comsume is not wanted. Instead of the algae being eaten by animals it is removed sometimes up to twice a week. Skimming is the next best thing and I personaly find they work well together, dispite the fact that the skimmer is stripping the good stuff as well. Aaron.

My diy skimmer pulled about 1.5 +. I must put it back on my main tank and get rid of the toy thats on there. If you are capable of making a skimmer that can do 1.5 a week, why would you ever want to bye one that does the same. Try to improve your design, you could come up with something even better still.

Maybe we should start a thread that could be edited to make it as understandable as posible for people who want to go marine. it could be called "How to set up a Marine tank" or something like that. And make it a permanent sticky. Does anyone else think this would be a good idea. Aaron.

When I first stared marines i got a lemon peel. Little #@^%$ ate the eye's of my cleaner shrimp. Aaron.