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The tank was cracked by an uneven surface that I thought I had fixed. It was only an example of what you can go through if something goes wrong as happened to me. Dogmatix I never said Iwaki I said Eheim or something similar because I thought Iwaki was overkill for this system. My main tank has a big Pond Master in it as well as Eheims That nice Dogmatix but we don't all live in the warm climate of Auckland. Lets see Gone away for two or three days middle of winter outside temp at night say -3 daytime temp 3-5 single return pump fails and the heater is in the sump what temp do really think lights will bring the tank up to with these conditions. Aaron.

Ira When I moved my tanks around I put All of my stock in one of my test tanks in my garage while I was moving and setting up my main tank. The front of the test tank cracked and I lost over $1500 worth of stock. The same thing can happen if a important pump fails. it's just not worth it. I now have next to nothing in my main tank and it looks like a pig because I never bothered to run all of the gear on it. Losing a couple of thing is one thing but a total loss just hits you to hard. Aaron.

Because it's not worth the risk when you look at the possible value of the stock that could be lost. The price differance could be to great. Aaron

You do not need a skimmer with all types of fish only tanks. only the ones with more sensitive fish and/or a high load. Do more water changes with sea water. Its not that far for most people we don't live in the middle of the US. This is whay I didn't want to include stock. Their is to much variation. I don't no how a conclusion can come from this post it seems to cover to many options. Aaron.

That may be so but not everyone will be in the position to buy that way. However that should be added as a comment. Aaron

For the Price differance and there life span I would go 2000 min, It would also be a great addition to an eventual upgrade. Anything that can be carried over to an advanced system would be benifical as long as we can keep it in budget. Aaron

How basic are we talking would ehiem or something similar be more suitable than a Iwaki. This is why I think we should put a rough price range on these systems. We could end up with an advanced system and a basic system with the same gear and the only differance being the size of the tank which is pointless. Aaron

lduncan wrote jetskisteve wrote I couldn't agree more steve. Aaron

Magnetic stirrer for kalk reator if it doesn't have its own. Aaron.

Pomereef For crying out load, I'll say it again, we are not telling people to keep a tank like this we are showing them a system and telling them why they should not do this Aaron.

It's true and you may think that you will still have your tank in the end but you will not have the money to power them. Aaron.

First Things first. I suggest we stick to one tank at a time or the info will end up all over the place as it already has. Shall we start at the bottom? Everyone that can and wants to help with this try to come up with the most efficient system for fish only without exceeding $500 and no DIY If someone can do this it's just a bonus for that person and it will just complicate things. Stick to the system itself for now tank, stand, Filtering, and lights to $500 We can add the rest after to make it easier to process the info that people put forward. Please say very briefly why you think each part of your system would be best. When we come to a conclusion and a finished layout with the pros & cons we can start a new post and put it in there. Then we can move on to the next one back in this post which would be a $500 simple reef. (The write up for the problems on that one will be big but we will have to make them as understandable as possible for a beginner). Aaron.

This is the problem. you as well have just taken a small part of what I said and misquoted id completly just like everyone else did Weather or not I beleive it can be done is not relivant Only a small part of what I said was quoted by layton. I also stated "fish only, basic reef, advanced reef. State the obvious pro's and con's". No I didn't mean that. What I meant and said was to show a setup that would cost $500 dollars and tell them why they should not do it . You do not tell someone that they souldn't and/or can't do something without explaining why. This was clearly a statement of my abilities in a debate of weather it could be done, at no time did I say a beginner should do it and I did not raise the issue. You will also see that I asked people to stop misquoting what I was saying. This received the intelegent reply of "then stop talking rubbish". It is not my responsability to teach people in this forum how to read english and interperate it as it is clearly written. Aaron. To continue I think we need more ideas on the layout, we have some that seem good but I'd like to see more and will do one myself. We also need more comments on them.

This is important If you do stay with a hex and the verticals are black make sure that the silicon on the inside of the tank is clear. Black silicon contains mould inhibiters and they are not good for the inhabitants. Aaron.

Please show me where I said that. At the start of this I said to show all the systems, and state the pro's and con's of all the systems then people can understand why you shouldn't have a small tank. I did not say that at all. Please show me where you saw this. The closest thing that I said to that would be when I implied that a beginner could keep a couple of fish in a two foot tank when I refered to my daughters tank. Anyone with half a brain could keep two small fish in a saltwater tank that size just by doing regular water changes and using a simple filter and heater. Two clowns don't tend to create alot of waste.

I also agree about the style of tank, think about the lines. The tank may look good on the outside but there just annoying to look into with the vertacal lines. You need to create the biggest area of uninterupted serface that you can. And I agree with Brianemone regarding the sump, can you show us why you have no room. I strongly recomend that you use the biggist sump you can on a tank that size, It is not a good idea to run a tank with a small total volume of water unless you have alot of experiance. the more water the better even if the sump is bigger than the tank. Can you put a sump somewhere else away from the tank. Don't use anything but Small leathers buttons and mushrooms if you want a reef untill you have more experiance, keep it simple yet make it look as good as you can What you are doing can be done but you need to make it run as well as possible. Aaron

Looks like I can do it with my server, I 'll try this way first. Aaron

How do I add pictures

Layton That’s 1 suggestion. The idea was for everyone to have an opinion including the beginners. Instead of putting opinions with reasons forward most of you have attacked my tanks instead without properly explaining why you should not show the systems and why they go wrong It appears that I am considered a lyre here, guilty until proven innocent. I have taken photos and will try to post them. Aaron

Then show it, and tell them why it has problems in the write up for that tank What you have just suggested will not stop people from trying it. Is this not obvious? Aaron

Can someone please tell me what my abilities have got to do with showing a small cheap system and the problems that peolple will have trying to run them on a list of possible set-ups, has got to do with each other. I am sick of being repeatedly attacked on this matter by people who want to tell people not to start a small system yet for some reason object to puting it in writing on a list of set-ups. Before anyone decides to have a go at me for talking about what I have done myself I would remind you that I never raised the issue in this post without it being in defence of someone making an issue of it. The fact that I can keep small systems running has got nothing to do with this post and is completly off topic. Aaron

Sorry I just thought I'd use the same terms that people have used towards me. Then show it and state the problems with it so people can see it when they look at the list. Is that really that hard to understand. It may be of benifit to you if you go back to the start of this post and read it properly. What part of my previous reply did you not understand. I beleave this has been stated already so people can understand why. Somewhere else on this board you made comments about they way you have been treated. Looking at what you just wrote I would say that you deserve everything you get, in spades. I find it interesting how all of the private emails that I have received from people in this forum don't agree with you and seem to be as frustrated as I am with this post. And it's been running with an air driven carbon filter for over four years without any stock loss. Whats your point. How much stock has been lost by people running the big expensive systems which I also have. And how much have you lost in the last for years. Aaron

I can't be bothered with this. The whole idea was to show a list of everything that people could and/or would try to do, and show a basic cost Then we would do a small write up for each stating the problems associated with each set-up. I have stated this from the start. If you all seriously believe that it would not be of benefit to show the cheaper possibilities and the problems associated with them on a list of set-ups then I believe you all need to have a serious think about what you are talking about. So far there have only been about 5 intelligent replies. The rest is all pointless rubbish. Why are you people arguing about this? If you do a set-up list it should cover everything weather it works well or not. If not why bother doing it in the first place. Aaron.

A week ago I would have said yes. But the way I've been treated recently in this forum for trying to get help for people that can't afford and may never be able to afford to keep the more elaborate systems which are not neccessary to keep a basic setup running well has put me off the idea of even staying in this forum let alone meeting people. I've been in Fish Forums in Europe and the US and have never seen people treated in the way these guys treat beginners They have always helped people within there budget so they can do the best they can. Quite frankly I don't think I would be missed. Aaron.

Fortunately there are cheaper alternative that millions of people all over the world use every day with great success. Gee that sounds familiar.