customer service???

[Pies]

Agree with Layton.

Joeblog - Service and Quality are my biggest factors (ignoring availability). I have recently purchased some goods (not fish related) that I could have got cheaper elsewhere, however I felt that the source I choose added additional value over the product itself (which would have been identical) and was worth another 15% in good faith.

Its interesting that you say prices havn't come down [in Chch] as there is definatly a reduction in prices here in the north. Not sure if its because of competetion or just larger volumes of goods available in general (I am only talking about livestock here, not drygoods).

Pie

[JoeBlog]

Its interesting that you say prices havn't come down [in Chch] as there is definatly a reduction in prices here in the north. Not sure if its because of competetion or just larger volumes of goods available in general (I am only talking about livestock here, not drygoods).

Pie

I don't want to imply that prices haven't come down in the industry. I really haven't paid that much attention over time to determine. All that I meant by my statement is that the store in question with verticle integration is not the overall cheapest in a static environment. I was originally paying more for the implicit contract of good service and I get along well with the employees.

[Aquatopia]

For my tuppence worth...I think you would be pushing the proverbial uphill to demonstrate that the goods (fish) was faulty which is the only real circumstance to demand a refund.

This actually is an interesting aspect of the scenario. For all intents and purposes the fish in question could be expected to behave in a certain way and it simply did not. In the same way that for all intents and purposes a 2kW jug might be expected to boil 1litre of water from 10 to 100 degrees in a fixed amount of time but it only works 80% efficient. Both are cases where an item could be considered faulty. A very GREY area indeed but interesting from a legal point.

Far more importantly though, if i were a store owner who had received thousands of dollars from a persons' custom over a few years, and upon whose generosity for help i had imposed, the very LEAST i would expect to do would be to offer a store credit (especially given that there would have been profit in the initial purchase in any case). A little common sense to retain the continued support of a valued customer - damn right JoeBloggs, it is the least the LFS could have done.

Sure a store may say "no returns", but this must be across the board and with enough flexibility that common sense can take a part in the equation. It sounds like the "newbie" was being drawn in with the offer of bringing something back but the store felt that you were already hooked so they could ignore passing on a favour !!!

Every right to feel service is poor ! Its a shame that one member of staff (the OWNER apparently in this case - which makes it even worse) diminishes the efforts made by others.

[Debbie]

I post this reply on behalf of my father, sorry not sure how to paste quotes right back at the beginning, so have typed name of member and their comments, trust it's not too confusing - thanks Debbie

He writes:-

Now that the storm in the teacup has subsided and I have had time to read the preceeding posts, I thought it appropriate to reply on behalf of my staff member involved and myself (as business owner).

Mainly for the point as some people were curious to learn “the other side†of the saga. eg.

Chimera wrote: if the above is not your circumstances and only an example, im intrigued to know what actually did happen?

Feelers wrote: think that the store should have an official (written on the wall) policy when selling things like fish to deal with this sort of problem, as its obviously a pretty common situation. I aslo think there is some responsibility on the buyers behalf to make sure they know what that policy is.

Firstly, we clearly state and display our terms of sale AT THE COUNTER AT POINT OF SALE (In line with the Consumer Guarantees Act) and in terms of Livestock sales – as not returnable, “please ensure you choose your purchases carefullyâ€

Thank you “Pies†for your intelligent appraisal of this point :-

Pies wrote: I don't think the shop has any responsibility other than to sell you a healthy animal with good long term life prospects. I wouldn't expect them to have refund any money. And as the SPCA add's say don't buy an animal unless you are prepared to look after it. So as long as the fish is healthy, the shop has done their bit. And I am not saying shops shouldn't consider taking a fish back for store credit or whatever is amicable to both parties (e.g. the yellow tang example would surly be and example of a fish easy to on-sell etc) but we shouldn't expect it.

Joe Blogg wrote: - He said that they are not in the business of selling and taking back fish. Mind you that all I wanted was store credit. I was still going to spend the money there as I have for YEARS, and heaps of it.

I will consider a refund depending on the situation and the customer. On this occasion I offered to accept the fish back (at wholesale plus GST). I have in the past accepted fish back from this customer – it would want to be noted he purchased several fish and asked and received discount.

Joe Blogg wrote: The example that I present originally in this post is one in which the behavior of the fish is out of the norm, so not the ignorance of the purchaser.

This is simply NOT TRUE - The fish in question was a Labroids Cleaner Wrasse which he wished to return (this fish was not the problem). The culprit was infact a six lined wrasses which he already owned that was harassing the cleaner (appears to be an ongoing problem and not out of the norm for this fish). It is also noted from my staff member that the day he purchased the cleaner he tried to onsell the six lined wrasse to one of my customers present in my store.

Joe Blogg wrote: I guess this is established by a long term relationship and the reason that I am so pissed off is that I feel as though they have broken this contract.

This comment mystifies me somewhat, Joe Blogg has spent little in our shop compared to the time we spent with him in the early days (sorting out and fixing his marine system and problems - set up by another shop) of him becoming a marine customer. There is no loyally to us, by observation he prefers to purchase off shore or recently with Auckland marine suppliers

Joe Blogg wrote - OK, lets add to the equation that it comes from a very long term customer that has probably more knowledge about marines than the owner (at least current knowledge from this decade).

As for my expertise in the field – I concede to any self-proclaimed expert and will ponder on my 30 years in the business and accept that you cannot please everybody all the time.

Bob Ward

Owner/Director Redwood Aquatics Aquarium & Water Garden Centre

[tel]

theres always another side............

[chimera]

im not so convinced. as i have already stated (and im talking only in my own experience here) i am a little blown away that since my post about bad service from an LFS, from speaking to others in the hobby i have found they have experienced the same level of customer dissatisfaction from the same store (im talking about another retail store than redwoods here) so to me i believe it would be easy to sit here and read "the other side of the story" from a LFS when all it sounds like is you are just covering your arse.

as they say, "the customer is always right". not that you have to agree, and not that i agree with this saying, but it just shows how a companies reputation can be at stake from a few simple comments. joeblog obviously had a reason to complain.

from your comments, it does not look to me like you are doing yourself any justice.

[Tanksman]

im not so convinced.... i believe it would be easy to sit here and read "the other side of the story" from a LFS when all it sounds like is you are just covering your arse.

as they say, "the customer is always right"... joeblog obviously had a reason to complain.

To right

Loyalty - at what price. I don't know about the prices in Christchurch but the prices in Hamilton are on the whole far more expensive than compared to Auckland, which is usually far more expensive than Trademe. If the reason is bricks and mortar are more expensive than web trading then its time the industry adopted the technology rather than attack the customer for using their head.

Re discount - don't offer a discount if it is going to be a sore point to you. Certainly don't dis hobbyists who choose to take some of the sting out of your prices because you willingly offer it.

[Feelers]

I think giving a discount for bulk buying is a really good idea. Moves more stuff off the shelves, makes the custom happy and encourages big spending.

With the amount of cash these things cost, customer satisfaction should be very high on the agenda. From reading online tutorials about how to buy fish, most say that you should be able to return them if they do not get on with the other inhabitants.

Obviously that's up to the retailer, but if it were me a swap/credit would definately be the minimum step I'd take. I would make sure that the fish survives the week upon retuning, so that there is no loss for the store if buyer has damaged the fish.

The thing is it shouldnt get to the point where the buyer storms off, never to spend his money there again. If neither party is being unreasonable, this shouldn't happen - but opinions between the two parties will differ, and at that point as a store owner I'd be inclined to bite my tongue.

They're like trained seals, give em a fish and they'll just keep slapping their fins together.

You might hate the customer, but in the long run you'll like their money even more.

[chimera]

he tried to onsell the six lined wrasse to one of my customers present in my store

THIS however, would piss me off if I were a retailer so joeblog is it true?!

[Aquatopia]

theres always another side............

Not sure who Tel is "hailing to" here - the plaintiff or the defendant, lol - but he is right - there are always different sides to a story.

It depends who you believe.

Either way, i think that to have left this topic pass without comment and then resurrect it from left field is a poor reflection on the party concerned.

Personally there are a few observations i would make on this matter;-

1. Why does the response from the owner (through a third party) refer to staff members involved when joeblog has made no reference to them himself ?

2. Whatever "OFFICIAL" policies exist, any sensible proprieter should have enough commonsense to over-rule these (especially given that another customer was told that if they had a problem with a fish they could bring it back in earshot of joeblog - thus implying that such a rule was not always observed).

3. As "tanksman" says - Dont offer a discount if you begrudge doing so and intend to try and use it as a lever to wriggle out of offering good customer service. In my opinion the fact it was given is a likely reflection that joeblog has indeed spent a lot of money at this establishment as he claimed and seems to contradict the owners comments that this is not the case. Why would you give a discount to someone who you felt was disloyal to your establishment ??

4. Im baffled that any retailer (especially one who refers to his 30 years of experience in the business so proudly) should try to factor into this matter, time spent with a customer. Thats EXACTLY the part of the equation that retailers hide behind when trying to justify the fact they charge so very much more than online retailers. Take that away and why exist ? Any retailer who is not happy to spend time with customers is long since due for moving on.

5. The final sarcastic comment "As for my expertise in the field – I concede to any self-proclaimed expert and will ponder on my 30 years in the business" is proof enough to me that this is an example of a person who has lost touch with modern retailing in the smug belief that just because they have been around for so long they must be right, and bugger the customer !!!

Regardless of every aspect of this case that may or may not have been mentioned on either side, i believe this retailer has done themself a serious dis-favour by responding a)late and b)in such a fashion.

[chimera]

well said pomereef

[Aquatopia]

THIS however, would piss me off if I were a retailer so joeblog is it true?!

Im not sure it would piss me off - its a fact of life isnt it? When people interested in the same thing get together at a location relevant to that interest, and an opportunity arises, they are likely to discuss things such as this. Chimera - are you saying you would not offer to sell a fish you were happy to release, whilst talking to someone about that subject just because you were in a place that sold the same thing? If you were in bunnings talking to a guy about lawnmowers and you had a nice one for sale, and you knew he might be interested in buying it, would you say nothing ?

[chimera]

of course, as a consumer i would be more than happy to sell my lawnmower, fish or whatever. but as a retailer, i would be annoyed. if this were the case it would simply be deemed bad business ethics. if i were the retailer, and someone walked into MY shop (which I pay rent, power, rates etc for) and someone else was selling THEIR goods to one of MY potential customers, i would not only find that unethical but outright rude.

of course this depends on the circumstances, if the 3 of them were in conversation and the sale meant it worked out nicely for all parties involved, this would be a different story. again, depends entirely on the circumstances.

[Aquatopia]

of course this depends on the circumstances, if the 3 of them were in conversation and the sale meant it worked out nicely for all parties involved, this would be a different story. again, depends entirely on the circumstances.

I think thats the point Chim - i dont think the 3 of them were in conversation, but having been in that store, the place is usually pretty relaxed and hobbyists often tend to get together and chat among themselves about the hobby - sometimes with and sometimes without the involvement of the staff. And if i were a retailer and some of my regular customers were having a chat and it transpired that one had a fish to sell that the other one wanted i would overlook the fact because i would be happy in the knowledge that they keep coming back to me for $200 boxes of salt or $350 worth of fish here and there. I would be even less worried if i did not have the item that was being sold available.

However, if that customer was in every week standing by the tanks blatantly selling in competition to me, then i would be pissed off. Its a matter of balance, and i would not consider the sale of a cheap old 6-line wrasse between two happy customers to be a threat to my profit and loss sheet.

[JoeBlog]

Well, I was just going to let it go and just never shop there again, but since they want to bring it up again, I must respond.

Sorry for the long post, but there’s a lot to be said…

Firstly, we clearly state and display our terms of sale AT THE COUNTER AT POINT OF SALE (In line with the Consumer Guarantees Act) and in terms of Livestock sales – as not returnable, “please ensure you choose your purchases carefullyâ€

I don’t know about any sign, it may or may not be there. One thing I do know is that I have been told on many occasions that if the fish does not work out, then you can bring it back. On the day in question, I was standing right there when another customer was told the same time about purchasing another fish. If the supposed sign is their “policyâ€, why do they make these statements prior to sale, and not only to their long term loyal customers???? :roll:

On this occasion I offered to accept the fish back (at wholesale plus GST). I have in the past accepted fish back from this customer – it would want to be noted he purchased several fish and asked and received discount.

This is the whole point. I have been a long term customer that has not only spend thousands of dollars with them on their over priced merchandise, but also gone out of my way to bring them more business. I also went out of my way to order Bob bulbs from the States from Marine Depot (since he couldn’t source them cheaper himself) in which I had my Dad specifically send them to me to save Bob money, for which I certainly didn’t charge him a service fee for my time or effort. As for the over priced merchandise, I was willing to pay a bit more for certain items for what I thought was a good relationship between buyer and seller. In fact, I thought we were friends.

Joe Blogg wrote: The example that I present originally in this post is one in which the behavior of the fish is out of the norm, so not the ignorance of the purchaser.

This is simply NOT TRUE - The fish in question was a Labroids Cleaner Wrasse which he wished to return (this fish was not the problem). The culprit was infact a six lined wrasses which he already owned that was harassing the cleaner (appears to be an ongoing problem and not out of the norm for this fish).

This is all true. There are two reasons why I didn’t get into the specifics. The first is that my only intention was to find out what the norm is for customer service. I had never even mentioned Bob or Redwood by name. I was just extremely pissed off by how I was treated and wanted to find out if I am actually expecting too much out of a retailer. The second is that this isn’t the only time that he has done this to me. (guess I'm a slow learner :oops: ) The example that I initially presented is exactly what happened to me on the first instance in which Bob charged me to put a fish back into his tank to only turn around and charge me full price on a fish that I was swapping it for. I was upset the first time as well, but thought Bob was just having one of his frequent bad days. (Regular customers certainly know what I am talking about )

At any rate, this first time I purchased a tang that for some crazy reason turned out to be a coral muncher, which is definitely not in the norm of tang behavior. I felt as though this initial example was much a cleaner case for which I would expect the retailer to accept the return for full store credit. It’s not like I wanted to take my money and spend it elsewhere. In the first instance, I actually ended up buying something more expensive. So, not only did he make money on a fish that he sold to another person for full retail, but he also made more money on me for a purchase on a higher priced item. This last time, I was going to buy a fish that was $30 more than the cleaner wrasse, but he will never get another cent from me.

The fish in question was a Labroids Cleaner Wrasse… It is also noted from my staff member that the day he purchased the cleaner he tried to onsell the six lined wrasse to one of my customers present in my store.

As for whether it was my ignorance for putting a cleaner wrasse in with a 6-line, this probably wasn’t the brightest move. However, I didn’t feel as though it was that big of a risk since the person who bought a 6-line wrasse moments prior to my purchase (who I joking mentioned to him that he should have just bought mine and didn’t actually try to sell it to him) was told “not to worry about it since you can bring it back if it turns out to be a trouble fish.†Also, the shop keeper said that they have kept cleaners with 6-lines with no trouble before. All of this made me feel comfortable making the purchase to see if I may be as lucky as the shop keeper in mixing the two.

Joe Blogg wrote: I guess this is established by a long term relationship and the reason that I am so pissed off is that I feel as though they have broken this contract.

This comment mystifies me somewhat, Joe Blogg has spent little in our shop compared to the time we spent with him in the early days (sorting out and fixing his marine system and problems - set up by another shop) of him becoming a marine customer.

This is an absolute joke. EVERYONE knows that Bob is totally old school and doesn't have a clue about current methods / advances in technology. Hell, he thinks that a Berlin Classic is one of the best skimmers available and pushes them on everyone for an insane price. (no offense intended to those few that use Berlin skimmers)

The "help" that he is refering to in those "early days" is when he came out to my house to help me install an undergravel filter!!! :-? He charged me something like $300 to do the job, which only took a little over an hour and it should also be mentioned that I bought them dinner. To top it off, I had to tear it out again a few months later when I got some "good" advice, realized that we weren't in the dark ages any longer and put in proper filtration.

There is no loyally to us, by observation he prefers to purchase off shore or recently with Auckland marine suppliers

Again, this is a joke. Of course I bought off shore in some instances. Hell, I bought off shore for Bob as I mentioned earlier. If I remember correctly, he has a 250W DE bulb on his shelf for over $300!! Who the hell is going to buy that??? He has Red Sea ozone for well over $1000. I can bring one in from the States with the most expensive shipping and buy the stepdown transformer for a few hundred $$ less than what he is trying to sell them for. This is the second time that he has stocked Red Sea Ozonizers and complained the first time that he couldn’t sell them. Geez, I wonder why?!!?!

As for purchasing from Auckland suppliers, it is actually cheaper to buy stuff from Auckland and pay shipping than to buy certain goods from them. Besides, the Auckland suppliers have tended to have a better variety of stock and on occasion, much better quality.

Joe Blogg wrote - OK, lets add to the equation that it comes from a very long term customer that has probably more knowledge about marines than the owner (at least current knowledge from this decade).

As for my expertise in the field – I concede to any self-proclaimed expert and will ponder on my 30 years in the business and accept that you cannot please everybody all the time.

Like I said, old school knowledge. It would be interesting to see how many people on this forum use undergravel filters in their reef systems!!

I can’t even tell you how many SPS corals he has killed. It is a bit of a joke around town on how he has all these SPS bleached skeletons (he has killed) that he has on his shelf and actually trying to sell them.

Bob has asked me on numerous occasions on how to keep SPS. I certainly am no expert, but at least my knowledge is from this decade, and I certainly haven’t killed as many corals as he has. In the past when we talked about husbandry, he would pull these old dusty books off the shelf for references. It's not like all the old information is useless, but the hobby has certainly made some vast strides over the years of which for the most part he is totally clueless.

A very well respected reefer in town who is building a large new tank was looking around for a tank builder. I asked him why he doesn’t ask Bob and he just laughed. We laugh a lot when Bob's name comes up.

[chimera]

I haven't laughed so hard in ages!!!

[Ira]

I'd just like to comment that I've always gotten good service in Redwood the handful of times I've been there. But their hardware is pretty expensive, like the DIY looking dual 175watt SE MH unit the guy there offered to me for $2K.

[tel]

In fact, I thought we were friends.

and it should also be mentioned that I bought them dinner.

i'm laughing so hard tears are lowering my s.g.

[Duke]

Just a quick comment, Jansens have taken many fresh water fish that my y Oscars did not like (old tank) and the odd salt fish with out too much problem (creadit towards next fish but not 100% - I think that is fair) I like the Jansens service and find HFF a little too hard to deal with some times, other time they are great 50% call.

Another jansens store went out of their way when I rang them with a leaking tank at 5pm in a panic, they were wonderful in helping replace my tank as the fish lived in the bath.

To be honest it is taking the time to talk to me that is important as I often just call in too look and if there is somthing cool then the wallet comes out, but not every time.

[tel]

remember guys, if it looks like its on the rocks for you two, ''theres plenty more fish in the sea''

[chimera]

Just a quick comment, Jansens have taken many fresh water fish that my y Oscars did not like (old tank) and the odd salt fish with out too much problem (creadit towards next fish but not 100% - I think that is fair) I like the Jansens service and find HFF a little too hard to deal with some times, other time they are great 50% call.

Another jansens store went out of their way when I rang them with a leaking tank at 5pm in a panic, they were wonderful in helping replace my tank as the fish lived in the bath.

To be honest it is taking the time to talk to me that is important as I often just call in too look and if there is somthing cool then the wallet comes out, but not every time.

I've had the same level of service from Jansens everytime. And a great deal less friendly service from HFF the few times I've been there.

[alanmin4304]

I have dealt with Bob Ward since Redwood Aquatics was a shed at the back of his house in Redwood and all though he can be a grumpy old bugger I have always found him to be very well informed on matters pertaining to fish and plant, and more importantly very forthright and honest,which is more than I would say about some others in Christchurch. I have found his prices reasonable as well.

[Aquatopia]

I have dealt with Bob Ward since Redwood Aquatics was a shed at the back of his house in Redwood and all though he can be a grumpy old bugger I have always found him to be very well informed on matters pertaining to fish and plant, and more importantly very forthright and honest,which is more than I would say about some others in Christchurch. I have found his prices reasonable as well.

Hmm, being forthright and grumpy are two characteristics that wont earn a retailer respect and loyalty though are they ?

[alanmin4304]

Forthright is a characteristic I admire over BS. We are all grumpy sometimes, some of us more than others, and I am quite happy to continue trading there.

[ghostface]

i think that one or more of the importers should start selling livestock on the net here. [like liveaquaria.com etc] . I personally would buy about twice as much if it was about half the price of retail. it is kinda cool to be able to goto a LFS and look at stuff but the prices could be so much better if bought straight from the importers - and i bet the importers could move heaps more stock.