Devo Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I guess the obvious answer is that DOC have concerns over possible effects on our native frogs :sage: I'm currently setting up a terrarium with my daughter who has a few Whistling Tree frogs about to morph, and while looking up froggie info on the net I of course came across heaps of info on Dart Frogs...so the question popped up in my mind...why don't we have some of these amazing frogs here? Given they are tropical frogs, I doubt they would / could survive if they did ever escape. In my life before kids, I kept all sorts of fish plus frogs, axolotls etc...now some 10 years on, I see that we have available cool reptiles like leopard geckos, blue tongue lizards, water dragons, and bearded dragons ...would these not pose the same danger to our native gecko / lizard species, as Dart Frogs would to native frogs? Has anyone tried to import Dart Frogs, or other frogs for that matter? I'd be interested to know of any background on possible froggie imports. Cheers, Andrew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Yeah...why can't we have White's Tree Frogs??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? :digH: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 somebody should try importing some :cofn: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 somebody should try importing some :cofn: better if you find some already here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason22 Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I guess the obvious answer is that DOC have concerns over possible effects on our native frogs :sage: I'm currently setting up a terrarium with my daughter who has a few Whistling Tree frogs about to morph, and while looking up froggie info on the net I of course came across heaps of info on Dart Frogs...so the question popped up in my mind...why don't we have some of these amazing frogs here? Given they are tropical frogs, I doubt they would / could survive if they did ever escape. In my life before kids, I kept all sorts of fish plus frogs, axolotls etc...now some 10 years on, I see that we have available cool reptiles like leopard geckos, blue tongue lizards, water dragons, and bearded dragons ...would these not pose the same danger to our native gecko / lizard species, as Dart Frogs would to native frogs? Has anyone tried to import Dart Frogs, or other frogs for that matter? I'd be interested to know of any background on possible froggie imports. Cheers, Andrew. Think you might have more luck looking in your backyard then with DOC. importing frogs they put in their to hard box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 no problem importing ocicats or wild cat crosses that massacre birds......well they are cute and cuddly....hippocrits! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneaky2 Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 good luck with that! still apparently live cane toads were ok to import live for vivisection back in the 90s along with african clawed frogs ex D.S.I.R. dont know what there called these days,but after importing(did i mention live)2 of the most invasive species of amphiabian in the world,any self respecting government funded department would be stupid not to change its name....wouldnt it? :facepalm: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbit Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 There is literally hundreds of different species within different family's that could be imported with no adverse effect (and be screened for any disease prior) but this would require DOC to do some work which isn't going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nymox Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Bascially within DOC there is no standards set up to deal with requests for importation of new reptile or amphibian species, and ones that are currently here (eg leopard gecko). The ground work has not been done, unlike cats and dogs where it is more or less adding the different names to a form and bingo. There has been a recent request for european domesticated fox and it looks like that might go through by 2015, perfectly adapted to destroy every here, and domestication is only 50 years deep with the fox so it is a very stupid idea. But it shows what the system is like within DOC. I have been working hard with them trying to set up the standards for leopard gecko, but the short answer is its not going to happen. You could always set up a containment facility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 There is literally hundreds of different species within different family's that could be imported with no adverse effect (and be screened for any disease prior) but this would require DOC to do some work which isn't going to happen. yes there are many species that can be imported and not survive in our environment sadly they all need a health standard developing many people are passionate about wanting to keep them but no-one is committed enough to spend the time or money to do the health standards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricketman Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 (As far as my understanding goes)>>>> Never going to happen... Dart frogs being poisonous, they are never, ever, ever! going to be allowed in NZ... Nothing that is poisonous, venomous or otherwise is allowed to be imported unless it has a standard and/or is already present in NZ... Sorry to burst balloons... (if i'm not mistaken, obviously) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcculloch Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Dart frogs aren't poisonous in captivity. :smln: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Dream on. Their status is threatened so you would have a better chance of keeping E.T. as a pet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 save on freight though, if you bring over with some komodo's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Dream on. Their status is threatened so you would have a better chance of keeping E.T. as a pet. Where can I buy a pet E.T.? I want one :happy1: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devo Posted March 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 This could be the start of a good discussion on frog importation, and some interesting points have been raised already. Livingart & Nymox have both mentioned that developing a set health standards is required. Given that Dart Frogs are very popular word-wide, I would guess health standards have been done in other countries & perhaps these could be adapted for NZ without us having to recreate the wheel. Nymox, you mention that you’re working on health standards for leopard gecko’s…but they’re in NZ already…so how did that work out :dunno: Is a containment facility the same thing as a quarantine facility? If so I might have to start talking to some of the current fish / reptile importers… Hey Alan, hmmm…Dart Frogs or ET, tough choice Health standards for ET, now that would be a task I’d pass on to the mother in law. How do other countries get to keep Darts if they're threatened? Dendroboard forum seems to be one of the most popular for Dart Frog discussions...and it has some 12,000 members! WOW... thats a lot of people talking about frogs. If I do manage to get a good deal on freight for Darts Varanophile, I’ll drop the komodos off at your place…how many do you want? What if Darts Frogs were to become available in NZ, who would keep them? I'm in :thup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 This could be the start of a good discussion on frog importation, and some interesting points have been raised already. Livingart & Nymox have both mentioned that developing a set health standards is required. Given that Dart Frogs are very popular word-wide, I would guess health standards have been done in other countries & perhaps these could be adapted for NZ without us having to recreate the wheel. Nymox, you mention that you’re working on health standards for leopard gecko’s…but they’re in NZ already…so how did that work out :dunno: Is a containment facility the same thing as a quarantine facility? If so I might have to start talking to some of the current fish / reptile importers… Hey Alan, hmmm…Dart Frogs or ET, tough choice Health standards for ET, now that would be a task I’d pass on to the mother in law. How do other countries get to keep Darts if they're threatened? Dendroboard forum seems to be one of the most popular for Dart Frog discussions...and it has some 12,000 members! WOW... thats a lot of people talking about frogs. If I do manage to get a good deal on freight for Darts Varanophile, I’ll drop the komodos off at your place…how many do you want? What if Darts Frogs were to become available in NZ, who would keep them? I'm in :thup: MAF are inherently lazy and not the brightest....still got me tho :oops: They will not do anything that means more work for them, or requires them to have specialist knowledge- 8 of the grren iguanas seized and euthanized were chinese water dragons that were wrongly identified by the MAF reptile expert....that's like a fish expert misidentifying a clownfish as a goldfish because they both have a lovely orange colour. Pay your 20k for a risk assessment on poison darts, get it peer reviewed by experts that agree with you............and your application to import will be denied as they are still a disease risk due to chytrid fungus. The technical reason for nuking the iguanas after allowing their sale for so long was that they had a pathogen 'not known on New Zealand' previously- Mt Pleasnat Strain Salmonella.............ssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhh don't tell anyone it was found in Otago skinks years ago..........we need to justify our budget to the Minister. There are NO records for stuff that came in legally in the 60's and 70's- MAF biffed them or lost them...iguanas, beardeds, leo's, turtles, tortoises, shinglebacks... There are records for the legal importation of less than 10 of the nearly 200 species of exotic birds in N.Z. Technically you could be persecuted for owning a canary and have it seized- there is no import permit of health standard. MAF could have easily copied the permit system in Aus and released a list of what is allowed. WHY ARE FRILL NECK LIZARDS ON THE LIST OF ALLOWED REPTILES TO BE IN PUBLIC HANDS IN NZ???????????????????? (Taken in Western Australia honestly Orifacer) Any of you guys seen em?....or did they discover an old permit for their importation. Weird, but then they did have capybaras on the last list of reptiles. Winners :thup: Yeah I'll take a couple of komodo's and these if you find em... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 MAF are inherently lazy and not the brightest....still got me tho :rotf: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 :rotf: yep, they had more coin than me. Judge admitted MAF's case full of holes. shame, could have made some money off those frogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#!CrunchBang Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Something may be popular worldwide, but if worldwide is Asia and the US, they have a large illegal pet trade. Basically, if they are a breach of CITES you can forget about it. Anyway, no amphibians will be imported while there is a fungus killing them off world wide as we don't want to kill our 3 natives which are endangered as it is. There is also the risk that people use them for their toxin and harm people. Even if they are harmless in captivity there isn't any assurance that they can't sequester their toxin from an imported food. If you got the risk assessment you would get objection from the zoo's and universities across New Zealand. My suggesting Devo is don't waste your money and get prosecuted. Varanophile, if you think MAF are inherently lazy and not the brightest, you do better, with the budget the government gives them it's easier to decline an application than spend thousands on a few frogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Something may be popular worldwide, but if worldwide is Asia and the US, they have a large illegal pet trade. Basically, if they are a breach of CITES you can forget about it. Anyway, no amphibians will be imported while there is a fungus killing them off world wide as we don't want to kill our 3 natives which are endangered as it is. There is also the risk that people use them for their toxin and harm people. Even if they are harmless in captivity there isn't any assurance that they can't sequester their toxin from an imported food. If you got the risk assessment you would get objection from the zoo's and universities across New Zealand. My suggesting Devo is don't waste your money and get prosecuted. Varanophile, if you think MAF are inherently lazy and not the brightest, you do better, with the budget the government gives them it's easier to decline an application than spend thousands on a few frogs. Create a licensing system....or any system. People pay for their permits. Some of that money can go into conservation of natives. We know where we stand, they know where they stand. The lack of system means lots of work for MAF, but then they like that, looks good when they ask for funding. I don't want to be part of MAF, I want to raise awareness of the stupidity of the system and put pressure on them to change. It's not rocket science. Prob not a good idea just quietly for me to apply for a job at MAF. Is there a system and clear cut regulations on what reptiles you can keep in NZ..............NO Should there be one................................YES Who should be in charge of creating one............................MAF Has it been suggested...............................YES Would it be hard to do...........................NO Would it take long/cost alot of money.............NO x 2 What can we do to change it........................bitch about it on the forum They do read this forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nymox Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 If there was a large enough market for herps then we would have more. Other species get in because breeders can pool resources in order to get all the necessary paper work and cheques signed still knowing they will make a steady profit for a few years before the market is flooded. Herps are always going to be even more difficult as there is a real lack of dedicated researches in the field, many species live in small population groups undiscovered until bulldozed over. Leopard gecko like our other exotic reptiles have been here long before such standards were put into practice, once again lack of funding meant it was easier to just allow people to keep and breed the populations in private hands rather then try to get rid of them. As varanophile mentioned anything that poses great risk of disease or otherwise will be dealt with more seriously, such as the poor iggies. The only way we would get the health standards done would be if we could pool resources together and do it purely for the hobby with no monetary reasoning. But it will never be a sure thing, more likely a no then a yes. They'll still take the money for all their researching so. That was the long answer. I prefer the short answer, much easier to type. Start doing field work, population counts and area diversity. Submit reports and gain a reputation in the field, then when you have some sway and the background to back that up things might change. We need more research in this country on the herps we have before there is any chance of that, as I said whites could still be in there, has anyone seriously looked? Even our icon the Kiwi still needs decades of research done in order to understand it well enough to try protect it long term. I know of two population groups that I wouldn't dream of telling DOC about, last 5 birds that we reported we're all moved, all but 1 died on the journey back to their original location, and the other shortly after, its not the first time that has happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#!CrunchBang Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Create a licensing system....or any system. People pay for their permits. Some of that money can go into conservation of natives. We know where we stand, they know where they stand. The lack of system means lots of work for MAF, but then they like that, looks good when they ask for funding. I don't want to be part of MAF, I want to raise awareness of the stupidity of the system and put pressure on them to change. It's not rocket science. Prob not a good idea just quietly for me to apply for a job at MAF. The licensing system, although a good idea for larger countries, probably wouldn't work because the numbers of people getting one in NZ wouldn't pay for the cost of running the system. We don't know the internal systems of MAF, it's a pretty big ministry. They don't ask for funding, they get assigned a portion of budget. One person who doesn't know how maf works will get nothing done. It takes a large organisation eg. one NZ organisation wanted to bring in dung beetles from overseas to do what dung beetles do. The university research said that we already have ~11 species of native dung beetle, research said it's pointless to bring the exotics in. Federated farmers and other large organisations objected to the exotics. Maf reluctantly said yes. Now we have an invasive exotic dung beetle that isn't doing what the original group wanted and it's now competing with the native. It's not rocket science, no kidding, it's ecological science, which works on a much bigger scale with far more variables and less known about it. You probably need a degree to work for MAF on anything you want to influence. Is there a system and clear cut regulations on what reptiles you can keep in NZ..............NO Yes, it's called a whitelist, If it's on the list you can have it. If you consider all the undiscovered species and the ones that haven't been researched for their effect on the NZ environment, It's far easier to whitelist. Who should be in charge of creating one............................MAFAnd universities and DOC Has it been suggested...............................YES Would it be hard to do...........................NOExtremely, Each species has to be checked out Would it take long/cost alot of money.............NO x 2It would cost hundreds of millions to create a blacklist. What can we do to change it........................bitch about it on the forum Or go to Uni, do postgrad and help with the research and get something done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Or go to Uni, do postgrad and help with the research and get something done. there are a few doing that already not bitch about it on the forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devo Posted March 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Prob not a good idea just quietly for me to apply for a job at MAF. :rotf: OK, I just got my head around the whole Whites Tree Frog thing....I've been away from FNZAS for too long... go to Uni, do postgrad and help with the research and get something done. Isn't that what MAF are there to do??? I pay my taxes so govt departments like MAF can do their job...and from what I understand of the WHT saga it's easier to state they pose a "risk" than to have a system & clear cut regulations. So...it looks like frogs are in the too hard basket (I see that Darts are illegal in Aussie) :bounce: might be better to just keep eggs or tad's... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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