alanmin4304 Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 The plate is still there. All we need is a few in the know to step up. It is not set in concrete and can be amended as we go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneaky2 Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 bang on the $$$ it is a survival technique, reptiles if they could would eat all year round. However as we know reptiles are cold blooded requiring external source of temp e.g. sun. Without this their body isnt at a temp where the organs ect can function at a required level. So they stop eating because they cant digest it, the low temps stop all productivity slowing the reptile down, this is where they usually borrow to escape the extreme climates (rain, wind, frost ect) when the temps raise then the emerge, breeding could be tied as a stimulant response to the raised temps. It gives the eggs a adequate temperature to hatch at and more time to get ready for the cold season (build up fat stores) If they didnt brumate they would die as they generally would freeze of starve to death. Its a survival Mechanism OOOOOK,if thats the case why will an inland beardie housed inside with the same artifical summer conditions over winter stop feeding n grow torpid regardless of heat,food n photocycle? Why will a coastal beardie bury itself in the middle of summer when kept inside? why will a male waterdragon thats been kept inside under turbo heat from hatchling to 2 year old still have low fertility at 7 years old ? .why will a male waterdragon thats been kept outside from day one have almost 100% fertility and be 30% larger than the former dragon despite having half the food and heat? after 30 or so years of keeping reptiles i have my own answers,what are yours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc254 Posted May 29, 2011 Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 OOOOOK,if thats the case why will an inland beardie housed inside with the same artifical summer conditions over winter stop feeding n grow torpid regardless of heat,food n photocycle? Why will a coastal beardie bury itself in the middle of summer when kept inside? why will a male waterdragon thats been kept inside under turbo heat from hatchling to 2 year old still have low fertility at 7 years old ? .why will a male waterdragon thats been kept outside from day one have almost 100% fertility and be 30% larger than the former dragon despite having half the food and heat? after 30 or so years of keeping reptiles i have my own answers,what are yours? Answer for the dragons -> Obviously its ideal to keep reptiles outside, we can only replicate so much with the use of D3 bulbs so natural sunlight is better for their bodies. However we cannot say thats why they are bigger and more fertile, you dont have a large enough test group to draw those conclusions. There may be documented evidence of this direct link but im not going to research it. We could say that yes there is a direct link or it could be that one water dragon you own, or a coincident that the inside grown in smaller? maybe your tank is to small, maybe the temps/diet is incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonz1833 Posted May 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 yeah that is true i only want to brumate inside this year so i can get fertile eggs they going outside in summer anyway going to buy an old avvairy and convert it best idea i can come up with and seems cheaper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted May 29, 2011 Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 Their bodies have evolved that way for hundreds of years in order to survive, while a shortage of food, less sunlight and colder Temps can trigger them to Brumate it also allows their bodies to have a rest period, this will produce higher hormone levels and a higher sperm count in the males for the breeding season. OOOOOK,if thats the case why will an inland beardie housed inside with the same artifical summer conditions over winter stop feeding n grow torpid regardless of heat,food n photocycle? Why will a coastal beardie bury itself in the middle of summer when kept inside? why will a male waterdragon thats been kept inside under turbo heat from hatchling to 2 year old still have low fertility at 7 years old ? .why will a male waterdragon thats been kept outside from day one have almost 100% fertility and be 30% larger than the former dragon despite having half the food and heat? after 30 or so years of keeping reptiles i have my own answers,what are yours? long sleep equals randy reptiles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insect Direct Posted May 29, 2011 Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 long sleep equals randy reptiles aka morning glory in humans :sage: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonz1833 Posted May 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 wake and shake &c:ry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneaky2 Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 OOOOOK,if thats the case why will an inland beardie housed inside with the same artifical summer conditions over winter stop feeding n grow torpid regardless of heat,food n photocycle? Why will a coastal beardie bury itself in the middle of summer when kept inside? why will a male waterdragon thats been kept inside under turbo heat from hatchling to 2 year old still have low fertility at 7 years old ? .why will a male waterdragon thats been kept outside from day one have almost 100% fertility and be 30% larger than the former dragon despite having half the food and heat? after 30 or so years of keeping reptiles i have my own answers,what are yours? Answer for the dragons -> Obviously its ideal to keep reptiles outside, we can only replicate so much with the use of D3 bulbs so natural sunlight is better for their bodies. However we cannot say thats why they are bigger and more fertile, you dont have a large enough test group to draw those conclusions. There may be documented evidence of this direct link but im not going to research it. We could say that yes there is a direct link or it could be that one water dragon you own, or a coincident that the inside grown in smaller? maybe your tank is to small, maybe the temps/diet is incorrect. YEEEEA NAAAAA! the dragon was moved outside at 2 years old once i got it.huge enclosure, same diet ,same conditions.what about the first 2 questions? :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalcolmX Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 sorry to go slightly off topic with my example. i have read on some overseas forums about frogs and amphibians, how it is essential to brumate in order to breed some frog species. they say the frog will convert the massive fat stores into eggs and sperm only when brumating, and then when they wake up they have to eat straight away. soon after, with the right weather systems - low pressure storms which create rain and a temp change, they will breed spawn etc. in nz i think the natural distribution of our two big green frog species is governed by temprature. the southern bell frog possibly needs to have a frost to brumate then breed while the green/gold does not have to brumate at all (demonstrated by the people who have bred them in living room display tanks). and therefore can survive as a population further north. photoperiod is also mentioned on these forums especially when bringing your pet out of its sleep. http://www.frogforum.net/ http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums http://talkto.thefrog.org to name a few found by different google searches just make sure you read through through posts a bit to find the people who know what they are talking about, usually indicated by join date, number of posts, reputation. its hard to find the answers but with an open mind its all educational. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc254 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 OOOOOK,if thats the case why will an inland beardie housed inside with the same artifical summer conditions over winter stop feeding n grow torpid regardless of heat,food n photocycle? Why will a coastal beardie bury itself in the middle of summer when kept inside? why will a male waterdragon thats been kept inside under turbo heat from hatchling to 2 year old still have low fertility at 7 years old ? .why will a male waterdragon thats been kept outside from day one have almost 100% fertility and be 30% larger than the former dragon despite having half the food and heat? after 30 or so years of keeping reptiles i have my own answers,what are yours? Answer for the dragons -> Obviously its ideal to keep reptiles outside, we can only replicate so much with the use of D3 bulbs so natural sunlight is better for their bodies. However we cannot say thats why they are bigger and more fertile, you dont have a large enough test group to draw those conclusions. There may be documented evidence of this direct link but im not going to research it. We could say that yes there is a direct link or it could be that one water dragon you own, or a coincident that the inside grown in smaller? maybe your tank is to small, maybe the temps/diet is incorrect. YEEEEA NAAAAA! the dragon was moved outside at 2 years old once i got it.huge enclosure, same diet ,same conditions.what about the first 2 questions? :lol: does not matter, your opinion from your small number of owned dragons is irrelevant. To draw the conclusions you have made you would need a control sample of at least 200 dragons to make a substantial argument favorings your opinion. I have never owned a bearded dragon so cant/wont pass my opinion on their bermation cycle. The reptiles i keep currently snake necks, water dragons and box tortoises all are captive breed but to out breed plasticity takes many generations and if you want i have more uni exams comming up but in three weeks i can tear that post appart with ecology, stats and evolution? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 the ability of an organism to change its phenotype in response to changes in the environment to out breed plasticity takes many generations recent study has shown that some skinks have gone from egg layer to live bearer in one generation due to colder weather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshlikesfish Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 recent study has shown that some skinks have gone from egg layer to live bearer in one generation due to colder weather Got links to any of those studies? Not because I don't believe you, but because i'm interested Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
repto Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/09/100901-science-animals-evolution-australia-lizard-skink-live-birth-eggs/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneaky2 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 does not matter, your opinion from your small number of owned dragons is irrelevant. To draw the conclusions you have made you would need a control sample of at least 200 dragons to make a substantial argument favorings your opinion. I have never owned a bearded dragon so cant/wont pass my opinion on their bermation cycle. The reptiles i keep currently snake necks, water dragons and box tortoises all are captive breed but to out breed plasticity takes many generations and if you want i have more uni exams comming up but in three weeks i can tear that post appart with ecology, stats and evolution? NAAAA stick your exams...your OBVIOUSLY one of these university types who bases his or her knowlege on regurgitated dogma or data produced by someone else....if you have never owned a bearded dragon why woud you state (brumation is a survival instinct ,and stressfull for the reptile) hope yor boxies are deep(literaly) in hibernation now! e.c.t is the world flat! does the sun revolve around earth! new ideas come from OBSERVATION ,TIME AND INTUITION....then come the scientists to prove the idea.back the bus up kid.....i got 50 or so waterdragons lying around at the moment, from 3 months to 8year olds, i will put up10 or so3m/olds for an experiment (if i agree with the template) you up for it! or are you too busy with your "LEARNING" :sml1: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 i will put up10 or so3m/olds for an experiment (if i agree with the template)i feel a paper in the making Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshlikesfish Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/09/100901-science-animals-evolution-australia-lizard-skink-live-birth-eggs/ Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason22 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 If it stressfully for bearded dragons, mine must want to be stress lol, she when down a month ago, even though she had perfect heat, lots of food (Same conditions as summer). but i must say she looks more relaxed than stressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc254 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonz1833 Posted June 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 so back to the point do i have to force my water dragons into brumation (hibernation) if so what is the best way to my understanding with WATER DRAGONS NOT BEARDED i just leave them in the enclosure leave the lights etc on feed them everyday, every second day and they will slowly slow down eating (mine are the oposite athe moment*waste desposils*) all by them selves and eventually stop, is that correct then just turn lights off till it gets warmer and the start waking up?one of my females always goes to sleep and sometimes will only come out for few hours then sleep then the other one has been doing it but up more than the other one during the day but my male still does his own thing so does that mean they will only do roughly one at a time and should i just keep feeding them or what ? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonz1833 Posted June 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 i will also like to add i dont want to bred them to sell i mainly want to bred as i will keep most of them (as much as i can afford to look after realisticly) as i love the hobby and want to bred them for my own pleasure (hobby) not just cause i want nz riddled with the dragons (like bearded dragons) if that makes sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
repto Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 you must be in la la land dragonz?how long has this thread been going and you still seem no further down thae track after how many posts and opinions of people that do know?Give up while you are ahead,and the last thing you need is more dragons,especially baby ones??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 do i have to force my water dragons into brumation (hibernation) no they will do it when they want to, so no force is required forcing them into brumation or stopping them going into it will cause stress let them do what comes naturally scientists find things that defy basic rules Parthenogenesis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broms2 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 jc254, theory will never win over practical experience, you are trying to argue with one of New Zealands top keepers of waterdragons with many years of knowledge from keeping and observing them in basically natural conditions - he knows first hand what he is talking about. Dragonz - read the advice given to you - there has been plenty in this thread! Dont force brumation, create the environment to let it happen naturally as per the advice given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonz1833 Posted June 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 thanks ppl just reread missed heaps lol pages got away on me and repto i do need more dragonz especially babys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
repto Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 the academics know all those big fancy words,we can never compete with that? most of the stuff they talk is just someone else`s work they have studdied up on,all good if the first person got it right but quite often useless information presented in an unrecognisable form?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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