phoenix44 Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 It would depend on if I did the order or not. (Browse through old posts to see how I kept the fish-room). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 I'd imagine one would only order what sounds familiar to them. I cannot speculate. ___ Epalzeorhynchus Kalopterus Crossocheilus Siamensis Garra taeniata Crossocheilus atrilimes Garra cambodgiensis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 And is it a major ask for the retailer to know the difference? Seeing as P44 is a retailer who claims to have seen four types, he may be able to expand everyone's knowledge when it comes to SAE/FF. I asked my local animates and nobody had heard of a SAE, but were certain the FF would eat black beard Yeah it is a major to ask because most retailers aren't hardcore fish keepers, and as you have shown even amongst fish keepers a lot would have trouble correctly identifying them. The SAE can be ID'ed by the black body line going right through the tail, they will school in the LFS's tank (when younger), and they don't have the brown/gold line on top of the black. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshlikesfish Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Yeah it is a major to ask because most retailers aren't hardcore fish keepers How is it a major? Its like telling the difference between dog breeds that are similar etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windsparrow Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Why try to make common names more accurate. common should be vague, scientific (latin) should be accurate A small population will care about silly things like sterbai vs golden leopard. The rest of the population wants a interesting fish and be able to confidently say to their friends "Oh that's a Gold Leopard :smln: ", not "Oh thats a :sage: ". also this population would rather have fun than a whine. :bounce: :bounce: How many hobbies commonly have latin variations of names. Not many, so why complicate this hobby for the :dead%fish (deaf fish)? also hybrids. :mbh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 How is it a major? Its like telling the difference between dog breeds that are similar etc etc. Yep and the only way tell a dogs breed(s) is to get a DNA test, I'm not sure if this can be done in NZ yet, as far as I know you still need to send the DNA sample to Aussie, cost is about $200. Dog breeds in Pet shops are stated either because the parents breed is "known" or because the VET that does the first check takes their best guess when they fill out the vaccination card. I'd call adding $200+admin costs for the pet shop a major. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshlikesfish Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 They can make an informed judgment with other animals. Why not fish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hovmoller Posted May 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Explain this then: HFF post that they now have "Acarichthys heckelii, also known as the Threadfin Acara" Then goes ahead and call it "Threadfin Cichlid". I asked why and they said "because that is what our supplier calls it" Here the fish has been identified as Acarichthys heckelii and along with it is an article refering to its most common name. In this case the common name is right there.. and "Threadfin Cichlid" could be many fish really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 They can make an informed judgment with other animals. Why not fish? Not sure if you read my post? The LFS doesn't make an informed judgement with other animals. Either the breeder passes on what the parents were and the LFS assumes they are correct and telling the truth. Or a vet takes a punt at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr pleco Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 We seem to live in the generation of "it's some one else's responsibility". It's going in your tank, it's going to be your problem if you buy the wrong fish, why shouldn't it be your responsibility to have reasonable idea what your buying? Sure if the LFS deliberately misleads you "no that Oscar will be fine in that 20l tank with some goldfish" then thats one thing, but using an less common name, come on. Take a step back and look at the whole pet shop, what you are saying is that either the LFS should only let you buy fish from the one person they have working there that knows everything there is to know about every type of fish and can 100% positively identify and sex every one, ditto the cats section, dog, bird, and small animal. Or that every staff member in the shop should know everything about every single animal and product thats in there? A big ask when the average retail wage is properly $15 an hour. Or maybe they should have a big disclaimer up on the door stating they can't confirm the type, breed, sex, or age, of any live stock in store and that staff have been instructed to not risk misleading customers by identifying any animal of any type. :nilly: +1 suphew couldnt have summed it up better myself i applaude you i wish some ppl spent as much time changing water and caring for their fish as they spend on here finding faults with everybody else way of doing things and that they know best i am not trying to point the finger but i would love to see some of these ppl that post these comments actually have the balls to run a petshop deal with all these issues raised and correct them and then tell me it aint that big a problem or it dosent incur any cost or time they would probably have perfectly named dead fish because they spent so much time identifying them they didnt have enough time to actually feed them or look after them ' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ichthus Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Yeah - given the hundreds of fish available, I think it's too much to ask every general pet store worker to be able to name fish to the degree some advocate here. They probably need to take the importers word for it sometimes, since the importer deals only in fish (and perhaps plants), while the pet store deals in all other animals, food, equipment, etc. The importers ought to know more - in theory, so I see why stores fall back to them. If hobbyists are at the point of breeding for resale, or stocking more specialist tanks, I would have thought the hobbyist would have done enough research to be able to spot issues with mis-labeled fish themselves. Some stores may be trying to mislead customers - but none I know. (And the "Black Line Flying Foxes" in my local animates were put in a troubled tank - and actually did eat the black beard algae...the importer called them FF) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshlikesfish Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hovmoller Posted May 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 IMO if you can't name the fish you are selling or can't tell me it's requirements, behaviour etc. then you are not qualified to sell it. If you wanna sell live animals, do you homework! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 If you wanna sell live animals, do you homework! If you want to buy live animals, do your homework. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 IMO if you can't name the fish you are selling or can't tell me it's requirements, behaviour etc. then you are not qualified to sell it. If you wanna sell live animals, do you homework! I'd agree with that, but there has to be a line somewhere. Selling someone 4 oscars for their 3' tank to go with their neons and plants is completely irresponsible, but on the other hand expecting a retail shop to correctly identify every fish they sell (something which experienced ichthyologists often struggle to do) is also unreasonable. Regardless of whether you call it a black line flying fox, siamese flying fox, siamese algae eater or a black and gold striped flying siamese algae eater the requirements of the similar species are all pretty much the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcculloch Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 Why don't you give hff a list of all the common names YOU would like to see used so they can get it right. Since you seem to know it all maybe they could use your help :-? . I've been in fish shops in Asia America and Australia not admittedly Europe and they all use a variety of common names a lot of which I didn't recognise, the only system which is consistent is the Latin names which are completely unrealistic for the majority of joe blow average people to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GZ_Loach Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 The only latin names I know are the basic dwarf cichlids and clown loach haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hovmoller Posted May 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 Why don't you give hff a list of all the common names YOU would like to see used so they can get it right. Since you seem to know it all maybe they could use your help :-? . I've been in fish shops in Asia America and Australia not admittedly Europe and they all use a variety of common names a lot of which I didn't recognise, the only system which is consistent is the Latin names which are completely unrealistic for the majority of joe blow average people to use. Yeah yeah here we go... Good ol' kiwi tall poppy syndrome ey? If you have read the posts you will see that HFF don't need any help at all.. They know exactly what they are dealing with and what they are selling (or at least they have a very good estimated guess) because they have the experience with ALLLLL the fish they see come through. What I don't get is that when they do have all that knowledge.. why don't they apply it a bit better (in my opinion of course) and not just use whatever name came from whoever sold them the fish. Of course it will only ever be an educated guess, that is all we can ask of them. I am not asking for guarentees. But to just stand abck and say "hey it's not our problem that you got a Flying Fox and not a Siamese Algae Eater. You should have done your research customer" We all know how many idiots goes and buy a fish because it's a cool fighting fish that will kill all the others or keep big goldfish in tiny bowls etc.. If the LFS didn't take a bit of responsibility for what they sell then where would we be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ichthus Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 I think this is starting to compound separate issues. Should a pet store sell a large goldfish for a bowl? No. Or 3 Oscars for a 4 foot tank? No. I agree - they should take a measure of responsibility. But that wasn't the original issue - it was about the common names used to ID fish. This is a trickier issue...and I'm not sure it works to lump the two together. If a pet store sold me a baby oscar, knowing I had a guppy tank - I'd be angry. If they sold me a juvenile SAE calling it a 'Flying Fox' because that's what the importer told them it was, I think I'd be a little more understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hovmoller Posted May 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 I think this is starting to compound separate issues. Should a pet store sell a large goldfish for a bowl? No. Or 3 Oscars for a 4 foot tank? No. I agree - they should take a measure of responsibility. But that wasn't the original issue - it was about the common names used to ID fish. This is a trickier issue...and I'm not sure it works to lump the two together. If a pet store sold me a baby oscar, knowing I had a guppy tank - I'd be angry. If they sold me a juvenile SAE calling it a 'Flying Fox' because that's what the importer told them it was, I think I'd be a little more understanding. You are right.. There are too many issues being brought into this topic. The only issue here is why do experienced retailers (such as HFF) continue to use (in my opinion and I hope a few others out there) obviously misleading common names where most of the rest of the world is using another. And please don't give me this crap attitude "bloody foreigner comming here and trying to tell us what to call fish here in NZ". That is not what this is about. I am just another passionate fishkeeper that have made my home New Zealand like so many of you out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbit Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 The only issue here is why do experienced retailers (such as HFF) continue to use (in my opinion and I hope a few others out there) obviously misleading common names where most of the rest of the world is using another. I dont understand the misleading part, is acara not a cichlid? What I don't get is that when they do have all that knowledge.. why don't they apply it a bit better (in my opinion of course) and not just use whatever name came from whoever sold them the fish. Have you access to the wholsale list? do you know what fish are named on there? are you sure HFF havent already corrected some name's (scarlet pleco??? L137 cochliodon more like). Almost cant be bothered :facepalm: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 Now now boys, I don't think this thread was meant as a personal dig at HFFs friendly, hard working and very pretty staff... :smln: Its great you correct some of the suppliers misnomers, I think the question being asked is why not correct more/all of them. I guess the plecs are an obvious one to correctly identify because A; pleco people are usually more picky about identification than most, and B; there is often a lot more money involved so people will be more annoyed and more likely to feel "ripped off" if they get something wrongly identified. Most people who buy a $12 siamese black line flying fox algae eater either don't care which species they get, or know enough to be able to identify them and know that retailers [not just HFF] often have them misnamed (as much as I dislike saying something is "misnamed" when using a common name). Thomas what does the Eartheaters book say about A. heckelii? I always thought the "threadfin acara" name was just as 'valid' as "threadfin cichlid' because of the genus Acarichthys. IMO either is much better than "threadfin eartheater/geophagus", but neither is as good as simply calling them "heckelii"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcculloch Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 And please don't give me this crap attitude "bloody foreigner comming here and trying to tell us what to call fish here in NZ". That is not what this is about. I am just another passionate fishkeeper that have made my home New Zealand like so many of you out there. Not my point at all only saying common names are inherently difficult to get "right" as they seem to vary everywhere not to do with anyone being a foreigner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hovmoller Posted May 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 Yeah I certainly didn't mean to say anything negative about HFF as such. I was using HFF and their staff as an example of a retailer that know their stuff which for me as a fishkeepers makes it a brilliant place to shop. I am simply expressing a big question mark to why these names? Because I simply don't understand why? With the species we have discussed here, to me other names would be better. I can accept if other people feel differently, so lets leave it at that. David I'll have a look at what Thomas Weidner calls A. heckelii as a common name when I come home. Will let you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 David I'll have a look at what Thomas Weidner calls A. heckelii as a common name when I come home. Will let you know. Thats twice that I've wished I could look something up in it since you picked it up, really think I might have to splash out on my own copy some time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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