Optimising plant growth and minimising algae

[kiwiplymouth]

Ahhh, I didn't realise that your big tank had an overflow.

I thought you must have had some fancy electronic contraption :lol:

[Jennifer]

Nah, no need to over engineer what is just a simple concept. :smln: I like the flexibility with being able to move the hose around the yard to water the plants. More sustainable and not going into the already taxed Chch sewage system!

[the-obstacle]

Having only 50% of the footprint of the tank planted should I expect to be fighting this algae for ever?

Or will the plants grow twice as fast? :thup: :slfg:

[SamH]

The more plants competing for lights and nutrients, the less chance algae has to grow. Also think about fast growing plants too, they absorb nutrients quicker than slower growing plants, great for a new tank.

[Jennifer]

The more plants competing for lights and nutrients, the less chance algae has to grow. Also think about fast growing plants too, they absorb nutrients quicker than slower growing plants, great for a new tank.

[the-obstacle]

Thanks, that's why I've got ambulia in there and a couple of other stems. It seems the twisted val is the fastest of the non-stem plants at the moment. I think it's because the microsword is covered in algae.

I swear one of my green lotus plants has doubled in size today. It's got the biggest leaves I've ever seen on one and it has at least 3 new leaves today.

On another note - is it ok to rub the dark green/black algae off the edges and tips of the leaves or do I run the risk of ruining the leaves and therefore ruining the plants?

[Jennifer]

In a high tech tank, that lotus should grow fast enough that you can prune off the tallest half dozen leaves every week, at least. Pruning it will keep it bushy too.

You can rub off some of the algae, but the leaves could already be damaged if the light has been blocked or if you are rough when rubbing the leaves, it depends on the plant but usually it is best to remove affected leaves especially when you have invasive algae like staghorn. Hardy plants like anubias can be bleached but invasive algaes will penetrate the leaves.

[fordayzbro]

Thanks, that's why I've got ambulia in there and a couple of other stems. It seems the twisted val is the fastest of the non-stem plants at the moment. I think it's because the microsword is covered in algae.

I swear one of my green lotus plants has doubled in size today. It's got the biggest leaves I've ever seen on one and it has at least 3 new leaves today.

On another note - is it ok to rub the dark green/black algae off the edges and tips of the leaves or do I run the risk of ruining the leaves and therefore ruining the plants?

Depends if there are plenty of unaffected leaves. I usually trim off any badly affected leaves so minimises the chance of the algae growing back.

If they're not too bad you could try spraying an excel solution on them when they are emersed during a water change and watch that algae die. :spop:

Sometimes it's just easier to sacrifice the bad leaves..... Usually the bad ones are in poor health anyway

[fordayzbro]

In a high tech tank, that lotus should grow fast enough that you can prune off the tallest half dozen leaves every week, at least. Pruning it will keep it bushy too.

You can rub off some of the algae, but the leaves could already be damaged if the light has been blocked or if you are rough when rubbing the leaves, it depends on the plant but usually it is best to remove affected leaves especially when you have invasive algae like staghorn. Hardy plants like anubias can be bleached but invasive algaes will penetrate the leaves.

Woops... must of posted at the same time :thup:

[the-obstacle]

Thanks heaps. I'll see what I can rub off but some of the microsword might be lost... I can definitely trim the rest. The whole tank of plants was bleached before planting 3 weeks ago so it's all new growth. The halides are are killing me just as I expected.

I've just lowered the photoperiod to 8 hours (got rid of the 3 hours of dusk/dawn with the powerglo only) hopefully that helps too.

[Jennifer]

The problem with algae in a new tank is that it is invasive and damaging to plants that are already struggling to adjust. You will have a much easier time if you cut the photoperiod even more. You can even cut the photoperiod in half so that the lights are on when you are wanting to view it. Then, after two weeks, increase it by one hour, then two weeks later increase it by another hour (increasing nutrients as well).

It is so much easier to endure looking at a dark tank than to deal with algae. :-?

[the-obstacle]

It is so much easier to endure looking at a dark tank than to deal with algae. :-?

So very very true.

So should I halve it and halve the amount of nutrients I dose every second day or dose the same amount every 4th day? I'll go and program the lights now to come on at night only.

edit: On second thought I might just give it a week to see what happens with the ferts and 8 hours of light. I don't want to go changing too much right now. I've cleaned off/trimmed all the dark leaves off everything so hopefully all the green now gets the plants growing a bit more. If the algae is still as rampant in a week I'll cut the photoperiod.

[JazzyJeff]

I read in an article in a TFH magazine that if you paint the leaves of anubius plants with a plant based natural antiseptic it will prevent algae growth (or at least slow it down) It didn't really indicate how often you need to do this but I guess it's worth a try?

[oO SKIPPY Oo]

Hi Jennifer, can I ask for help I have a couple of tanks that are planted but my main problem is my discus tank

Dimensions & volume of tank = 80x40x40 / 128L

Lighting = I have a 4 tube T5 but currently running is only 1x 10,000 Kalvin tube (turned off the 18,000 PowerGlo due to issues listed below) probably on for about 9 hours a day - I need to check that when i get home tonight.

Substrate = 1 inch Daltons aquatic mix, with 1.5 inches gravel on top

Plants = Twist Val, Sagittaria microfolia, and the big leafed plant from this shot which i forget the name of http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=49091&start=17. I pulled the cabomba and ambulia it was just getting out of hand too much space between the leaves.

Fish stocking = 2 Discus, 1 GAE, 8 Neons (i was looking at getting more like 20 more but that may be too many for the tank), 2 Pearl Gouramis (which i may find a new home for)

Goals = to rid myself of green hair algae, a small amount of black beard algae, and the brown/magenta algae on the leaves of the Sagittaria. I spend about 3 hours a week on my tanks now but i dont want to be trimming plants all the time, thats why i have pulled the cabomba etc. dont have a big budget anything under $100 should be ok.

A couple of other notes - I'm running DIY CO2 but I'm not getting much pearling on the plants so I think I need to make some changes with my recipe (1.5L bottle 1.5 cups sugar, 2 teaspoons active yeast). I have Flourish Comprehensive but only put 1 cap in when I do my weekly water changes. I have Flourish Excel which I also put in 1 cap in the weekly water changes (this was to help with the black beard)

Hopefully from this you can sort me out

[Jennifer]

Firstly, if you don't want to be trimming plants, you might like to have a low tech tank. This would mean little or no nutrients and relatively low lighting. In these tanks, 'algae sponges' like floating Indian fern work absolute wonders for controlling algae.

If you are trying to grow plants faster in order to make a more lush planted tank, you are getting into a more complicated system where fertilising is a must. if that is the case, try putting in more of the micronutrients (Flourish comprehensive). many algae problems can quickly be solved by correcting the limiting nutrients and most people underdose micronutrients. If you have tried everything else and you still have algae, add heaps more micros. Dose every other day at between 1ml per 25-50L every other day (1ml per 25L is twice the recommended dose rate). If you are having problems with affording that much Comprehensive, you can buy a bulk aquatic trace mixture. It is still quite expensive but will be about 2/3 the price of Comprehensive. Keep in mind the macronutrients as well, nitrate, phosphate and potassium. If you increase the light, these may need to be added as well. Magnesium can also be added once a week after the 50% water change partly to add some hardness (which the plants appreciate) and partly to supplement magnesium. These are epsom salts. You can add this at a rate of about 1/4 tsp per 100L.

In terms of carbon, in that size tank I would advise dosing Excel daily, or every other day at the recommended dose rate until the algae is controlled. Hair algae is not very responsive to Excel, but the Excel will provide a consistent amount of carbon for the plants and they will take off, soon out-competing the algae. For that size tank, the Excel will be quite affordable and will give you excellent results. If you want to still do DIY, go ahead, it will certainly help but in the mean time use Excel until the algae is gone. In terms of the DIY you might want to think about changing your recipe, add less yeast, 1tsp will be fine, that will give you a slower, more sustained release, also, use a 2L bottle or larger so they don't get toxic as quickly and thus will last longer. You could also consider adding a second bottle a week later, that will help ensure the supply is constant, just be sure that you don't kill the fish (you can always pull the CO2 tube out each night if you are worried about large pH fluctuations).

It sounds like you are addressing the lighting issues, as I have mentioned in previous posts, controlling the plants' demands for nutrients is easy if light is the limiting factor. When they get established and you have your dosing right, you can very slowly increase the intensity and then eventually the photoperiod.

[oO SKIPPY Oo]

Thanks for reply - I think by removing the cabomba I have reduced the amount of trimming I need to do - that was the fastest grower in the tank but my other issue with the cabomba was when i trimmed it looked a bit ugly. I've never really had any luck with floating indian fern in this tank i dont know if its the amount of light or something else but every time I had tried it just goes brown and dies off. I'm trying some in my daughters tank which is very low tech - a t4 tube, no ferts apart from Daltons Aquatic Mix under the same gravel I'm using in my other tank - and so far so good but im not holding my breath i just have to wait and see.

I'm not really after fast plant growth but if that's what its going to take to get rid of the algae then so be it

I just double checked and the single 10,000 k tube is on for 7 hours from 12pm to 7pm (mind you that was reduced last week from 1x 10,000k and 1x 18,000k PowerGLO but same length of time)

I have about 3/4 of a 500ml bottle of Flourish comprehensive so i will use that up first but when that is all gone to cover off the macro and micro nutrients would something like this be better? http://www.trademe.co.nz/Pets-animals/Fish/Water-treatment/auction-384736933.htm - if I remember correctly there was someone here selling macros and micros in a dry mix it yourself form but i forget who it was.

So your suggesting that i need to add Excel even though im running DIY CO2? would i be better off getting a pressurized system ? im not sure if i mentioned that im running my co2 through an airstone i know i need to get myself a diffuser or something else ? if there is anything else that is better for difusing diy co2 into the tank?

Thanks for your help

[Jennifer]

You can also get rid of some types of algae by going low tech. Mind you, it is always easier to prevent algae than it is to get rid of it. Hair algae is pretty tough, you need to remove affected leaves and even then it can be persistent. Even if you do go low tech, I would try adding more micros and Excel for a few weeks to see if you can get it under control. Alternatively, you can always do a blackout.

In terms of the type of micros, it is good to get a broad spectrum micro mix that is separate from macros, that way you can increase the micros without making your tank toxic from too much Nitrate. I personally wouldn't pay that much for a liquid. You might as well get Flourish Comp from your LFS since you know for sure what it has and that it is good quality. if you want to get some bulk micros, let me know.

As for pressurised CO2, yes! If you can, that would be ideal. If you go that route, be sure to get a solenoid. A drop checker and drop counter are also really useful. Diffusing the CO2 depends on the size of your tank. If you have a small tank, a ceramic diffuser will be fine. If you have a large tank, you will need a lot more going in and to prevent it rising to the surface you will need some system of dissolving it. Putting it into the intake of the filter is a good temporary measure but the carbonic acid can break down the rubber gaskets of canister filters over time so it is not ideal in some setup. I can get good reactors made in the workshop here at near cost for the parts. They fit right onto your filter and you pretty much never have to think about it again. I might not be doing it for much longer though since the supplies are almost gone now.

[oO SKIPPY Oo]

Jennifer - your a legend, I will get started on a shopping list for my co2 tank etc and start dosing every couple of days with comprehensive and excel.

Can you get bulk micros and macros (separate of course) or just the micros? if just micros do you know anyone that can supply the bulk macros?

[Jennifer]

You can get the bulk macros separate. Stocker Hydroponics is a good supplier. All the NPK you need can be provided with KNO3 and KH2PO4, I think the dose rates are earlier in this thread, if not, let me know. They are based on Tom Barr's EI method.

For the bulk micro mix, PM me if you are interested and I will tell you where to get it and the dose rate I have calculated for optimal growth.

I should just be clear that you might be fine with PMDD or some combo fert mixture. What I am commenting on is the EI method and I personally feel like I can get better control by dosing the macros separately. It's all preference

[Sophia]

Please see what you think of my now-established low tech tank and if any tweakings can/should be made to banish algae and/or tell me if I am being too much of a perfectionist.

Over the past couple of months there has been slowly growing a few threads of hair algae in the christmas moss area on the right, very minimal but noticeable to my beady eye. A month ago I removed the threads by hand, it's taken this long for 1 thread to grow back.

In the top quarter of the tank in some of the twisted val and the needle java fern there are small patches of either staghorn or blackbeard tufts. Again, you wouldn't see them unless you are looking for them, which of course I am.

There is green spot algae on the glass that needs to be removed every couple of weeks.

Specifications:

This morning I did some tests after not having done so for months and for the first time ever there has been an almost zero nitrate reading. Nitrite and ammonia also zero.

Tank has 1x 14000K T5 8 watt tube. Lights are on from 1pm to 7pm. Little or no sunlight in this room, the tank is quite dim when lights are off.

Inside glass measurement: 26.5cm front to back, 28cm base to water level, 49cm long.

Stocking - 8 celestial pearl danio and 2 fry - 1 oto deceased a week ago. There will be one algae eater of some sort at a later date.

Plants - lots, though for a month+ no crypts as they melted, now growing back fast.

Ferts - JBL balls in substrate that are still alive, occasional dosing of flourish comprehensive.

Water changes once a week, usually around 4-5 litres

[Jennifer]

The green spot and staghorn are basically a sign of too much light for the available nutrients. The green spot is lack of phosphate and the staghorn is fluctuating ammonia and carbon levels. If your nitrates are almost zero it is a sign that your plants are growing well (this is obvious by the photo) but it is also an indicator that they are not able to grow as well as they can since the nitrate is all used up.

There are a few things you could try:

1. Address the fluctuations in CO2/carbon - Each time you do a water change, you are adding a bunch of dissolved CO2 but it is quickly dissipated after 24 hours and it is that change in levels that will promote the staghorn and black beard. You might try reducing the frequency of water changes. In a balanced low tech tank, it may not be necessary to do water changes at all since all the fish waste products will be used by the plants. Alternatively, you could change some each day if you really like the sparkly clean water look.

2. Address the limited nutrients - Adding more nutrients will help the plants grow faster and use up any trace nutrients that are causing the algae. To do this, you could feed the fish a bit more, or add a couple of more fish, or cut back the number of plants, or change to slow growing plants. You could also add more fertilisers. It is good that you have the fast-growing ambulia as that is really a sponge and will be a bellweather for how well your tank is doing. If it stops growing well, you will know that there is something wrong.

3. Ignore it - As long as it isn't out of control, then you are striking some sort of balance. The more the plants grow, the more the algae will be out-competed but on the down side, there will be a point at which the plants will grow so thick that there is not enough nutrients for them all and some start to die off. If you prune before that point, you will avoid that, but don't prune too much or the plant growth will not be enough to stop the algae.

Here is the thing: Nutrients in the water are floating around just waiting to be used, the plants can only use the nutrients if they have some carbon and some light, if they don't have those, then the algae can use the nutrients. It's finding that happy place where the plants are growing well that is the key.

[Sophia]

From point 1 - you have suggested this before and I haven't done it as I like to gravel vac up the most obvious poop from the front of the tank once a week. Thinking on this I can put off WC to once a fortnight but changing some every day would be less likely to succeed as it wouldn't get done on days I would forget or not have time. But I do like that sparkly clean look so I will keep pondering.

Point 2 - what do you suggest re adding nutrients? If there is something in particular you recommend and a frequency I will give it a go.

Point 3 - I think that the ambulia took off when the crypts melted. I had done a gravel vac and disturbed them and trimmed and replanted the ambulia. Then it seemed like over a couple of weeks it all took off like when I was doing a lot of fertilising. So perhaps I had reached the point of too many plants for nutrients just before the melt.

Why does the top quarter of only some of the twisted val get the algae and only a few threads of hair in a few places? Is it just a matter of time before it creeps elsewhere?

[Jennifer]

Regarding nutrients, you could try adding twice as much Comprehensive as you are adding now (either by adding it more often or adding more at each go) and see if that helps.

Regarding algae on parts of plants, those leaves are not growing as well (not using nutrients) so the algae has a place to attach and grow. You can remove those leaves altogether if they get bad as they are old and dying anyway.

You are probably right about the ambulia taking off after the crypts have melted. There are only enough nutrients there to support a certain number of plants.

[Sophia]

thanks Jennifer

[Squirt]

Hi

I'm wondering if Jennifer of anyone else can help me out

Dimensions & volume of tank:40(L)cm x 25(H)cm x 30(W)cm ie 30L

Lighting: Aqua One AL15D and ill try to find some powerglos for it

Substrate: Aquatic Soil (not sure of brand) and silica sand on top.

Plants: Riccia fluitans and Elocharis acicularis(dwarf hair grass)

CO2: DIY with ladder diffuser

Fish stocking: unsure yet but probably a school of Dwarf rasboras (6?)

Goals - What you want from the tank, a nice looking iwagumi tank with no algae

amount of time you have to maintain it: half an hour a day

approximate budget you want to spend on it: Unsure $50 max from now (I have substrate fertilizer, DIY CO2, diffuser, heater, lighting, filter, riccia, tank, schist, rocks for attaching riccia)

This is really my summer project. I'm not sure how to go about dosing fertilizers though (without spending heaps on it). I might order some from the site you listed earlier (hydroponics.co.nz?)

I'm also concerned about algae. Since the only root plant is the hairgrass will I experience algae problems?

I don't have any test kits or anything yet as I'm still in the progress of getting the tank set up, see progress here

http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=55721