The Reptile hobby in New Zealand

[repto]

As bad as it may sound, having the backing of a large nationwide pet shop would help - would add a lot of weight. Just not sure how and if it would work, as everyone seems to enjoy bagging this particular company. They have helped MAF out on occaision too,

can`t really see how that would help or what you are meaning Morc?

[ryanjury]

I have read this entire thread and followed with interest as I know quite a few keen reptile keepers.. I think the major issue (if you can get enough people working together and not scrapping) would be $$'s, unsure if Morcs chain store would help with that but it is what gets stuff done especially with government departments and recession etc..

[Varanophile]

good post. that's how I see it too.

Some of all of your logic is flawed.

As many of you know i breed dogs

I have some of NZs biggest winning dogs (http://www.dogsonline.co.nz, http://www.boxtonandtennille.com).

I breed for quality not quanity I demand a premium and i get it. I make little money cause I dont farm the animals. I am lucky to cover costs over the life of my kennel. Yet I know people who do this for a living, as well as those who more than cover their cost but it is not their job. They supply super stores and LPS with things

I am not in it for the $ but I am in it for the breed.

That is my choice.

I still do this because I want to.

Lets apply that to some of your logic.

If I set up a breeding set up like some of the reptile farms in the states.

I can set up conditions for many herpts and FARM them making them available for a few dollars here and there. I can afford to cull or sell the least healthy animals and the most unliked colour morphs for little expense . But I am Farming. And I have to have access to a stock population to begin with

Here most people have herpts cause they like them.

they have neither the time money or inclination to FARM. those that do supply the market and make the cash.

Take the iggies

10 grand a throw then 5 k for a young pair...in a matter of months.

Leopards are a good example one male in the country because of our lack of care in the past. Some one works it out and now you have 1500-500 in a few short years.

Supply does not equal demand in this case nor in my opinon was effort rewarded for keeping the animals here.

Secrecy is a must because we are self forefilling prophocies.

a few years back you could buy natives and some were exported to europe in the thousands ...for a large sum of cash... legally.

My point is this

We all have a passion for these animals ...native or exotic...it is a pity that sometimes this passion causes conflict..but that is the way of Man....either way we are the GAURDIANS of this hobby so it is up to us to promote it, protect it, and participate in it

In 20 or 30 years we will be able to look back and say crikey a leopard for $20 australasian dollars. But we need gaurdians and we need stock and we need a hobby to continue with

[Varanophile]

if someone wants to legitimise this hobby fully

i will sign a petition.

but thats the difficulty - you need alot of time and people to sign it.

media attention would help.

get animal activists on it.....

If you think the hobby is doomed and you won't help it proactively then what is the point of being into reptiles in NZ?

How many others on here think the hobby is doomed?

[Varanophile]

the way I see it the `reptile hobby` as its been put ,is a bit like an iceberg.What you see above the waterline is just the tip of it(thats where us legitamite lawabiding types will be found?There are different levels below water with animals of species that we can only dream of??These lower regions may pop up into our space now and again if they want to,but many of them are there happily doing there own thing telling no one nothing.They have been for years and will carry on doing so.

Is there anyway of 'legitimising' animals that are under the radar without risking losing the animals/and or prosecution?

I can guarantee that if you called the 0800 MAF number and asked if lace montiors were kosher you would have a pretty impressive response within a couple of days from the men in the white suits (the other men in the white suits)

[repto]

hows things in the lucky country varanophile?would like you to clear something up for me on here and verify to the doubters that it was indeed you that had the banjo frog tadpoles back in `99.nothing like hearing straight from the person concerned?

As to your question,no way as you well know,and not to say the goal posts won`t be shifted at any point to any place!!

[livingart]

Is there anyway of 'legitimising' animals that are under the radar without risking losing the animals/and or prosecution?

prove the history of the animal in nz

[Insect Direct]

the way I see it the `reptile hobby` as its been put ,is a bit like an iceberg.What you see above the waterline is just the tip of it(thats where us legitamite lawabiding types will be found?There are different levels below water with animals of species that we can only dream of??These lower regions may pop up into our space now and again if they want to,but many of them are there happily doing there own thing telling no one nothing.They have been for years and will carry on doing so.

You raise a good point repto. The secrecy of the trade may well be the hardest barrier to overcome. But then i suppose there will always be some who want to lay low, some with good reason to, others just like to push the limits of the law.

I would just like to see the more common stuff, to be made legit for a start.

I for one simply dont go near the rarer stuff, to bigger question mark = to bigger risk for me.

[livingart]

there have been some good ideas put forward in the past

to legitimise exotic reptile keeping in NZ a body needs to be formed

to give a collective front when dealing with authorities

[repto]

basically they can do what they like to us.with our agricultural based economy we don`t stand a chance.I don`t agree with this myself as it just tends to make smuggling more viable and would drive the `hobby` further underground.

[Varanophile]

hows things in the lucky country varanophile?!!

If you mean N.Z, then yeah things are good. Boxies look real good this year, how are yours?

would like you to clear something up for me on here and verify to the doubters that it was indeed you that had the banjo frog tadpoles back in `99.nothing like hearing straight from the person concerned?

As to your question,no way as you well know,and not to say the goal posts won`t be shifted at any point to any place!!

Roger that. Found a population is Whatipu, West Auckland when looking for banded kokopu (Galaxias fasciatus).

I used to be a native fish collector big time.

Contacted MAF, had them confiscated.

Went back to the original site and recovered some with MAF.

Never tried to sell any.

Never charged.

Noone ever charged.

But this is the reasoning behind coming down hard on the WhitesTreeFrog thing, I was told off the record by MAF lead investigator (even though this is not something they will admit on the record as no wrong doing was ever alleged)

Hope that clears that up for you Repto.

[repto]

not me,others that did not believe when I said from a maf point of view you were a marked man.

so you are back home then?

[Varanophile]

prove the history of the animal in nz

would a permit be enough? or an affadavit from previous keepers? or a book by a scientist known to be an expert to MAF detailing reasoning that a population of a particular animal could easily escape detection and areas that are most likely to hold such a population?

I get the feeling that the goal posts will shift if such things came to light..not so much to protect the country, more so to protect some reputations and avoid compensation payouts.

Got to love hypotheticals.

[Varanophile]

not me,others that did not believe when I said from a maf point of view you were a marked man.

so you are back home then?

yes mate to both.

[livingart]

would a permit be enough? or an affadavit from previous keepers? or a book by a scientist known to be an expert to MAF detailing reasoning that a population of a particular animal could easily escape detection and areas that are most likely to hold such a population?

I get the feeling that the goal posts will shift if such things came to light..not so much to protect the country, more so to protect some reputations and avoid compensation payouts.

Got to love hypotheticals.

all of the above and affidavits from the hands they have been through

[Varanophile]

costs maf money to do that

easier for them to let someone else do it then they can say yay or nay

if a standard prepared meets all the requirements then legally it should not be denied

Do some research on who signed off the evidence on the iguanas.....neither expert nor scientist. MAF did not meet ERMAs basic guidlines on this, but then again why let facts and proper procedure stand in the way of a good witch hunt. Especially when your department is having its budget assessed...busy, busy, angry little bees...lol.

[phoenix44]

Did they compensate Kim?

[Varanophile]

especially if said shop had its own licensing of reptiles sold, and chipped them to boot...create the system for them

As bad as it may sound, having the backing of a large nationwide pet shop would help - would add a lot of weight. Just not sure how and if it would work, as everyone seems to enjoy bagging this particular company. They have helped MAF out on occaision too,

[Varanophile]

Did they compensate Kim?

still rolling but looks good. Not just Kim, anyone who had any iguanas taken. I for one will be watching this one...it will set a precedent.

[livingart]

still rolling but looks good. Not just Kim, anyone who had any iguanas taken. I for one will be watching this one...it will set a precedent.

and then the hobby may change

[Navarre]

Chipping is a good idea.

easy to trace genelogy and there fore create a breeding program as discussed with certain of you in past

also cheap and easy

however precident is a different story...esp from providence

leopards and lace monitors both kept here for ages but not outside containment until about 20 years ago. Cough

boxies are another good example how many toes do yours have? 3 or 4

leopard torts well how long is precident? that male was in the family for 50 years and here for 20 before becoming illeagal only after a containment facility had it with their females

earlier was asked re IHS and Risk anaylis the reply is as earlier quoted we will not be allowing the import of any reptiles in the near future to NZ. so how do you develop IHS or risk anyalis if that is the answer prior to either.

Secret squirels still exist and will for some time. RIP fredie. however it is what we make it

lots of stuff can be changed I can sell a dog to Japan for 100k US. Cant import semen from spain cause no ihs but it can go to Austraila and bugger me I can bring it in from there. Or hey I can bring in a 44 gal drum of water buff semen from italy for less that it cost to buy a small group of Whites 2 years ago.

All things change

As for societies one exists they are now recognising exotics ..oh ...and they have scientists and providence in this "hobby"

go figure...all things change

[jc254]

also if MAF decided to make a list of what is in NZ, i dont think that the keepers of these reptiles would throw their hands up and admit they have them. I mean if you haven't heard of them for 20 years or so they are not breeding them with the intention to sell/establish a population. Its their pet and thats how they see it, why risk theft/seizure?

There wont be a IHS created because their is a lack of research on species at present. We do not know what diseases are in NZ within out reptile populations, and what world wide diseases are out there. Could you imagine the damage to NZ heritage and world wide reputation if we allowed imports of Leopard Geckos to have a disease breach our boarders and impact our native species?

I am all for establishing a legal list, and i would love some of the reptiles mentioned in this thread however i do not see it being a reality until their is a economical benefit to NZ economy, and with our small population and even smaller hobby that wont happen.

Also regarding prices, if someone can get 10k for a iguana then good for them, if you have to wait a couple of years until they are in your price bracket then so be it. Man have always but themselves first, many people who claim they are in it for the hobby and the first to be charging a premium. Fair enough, their money their risk.

You may have spent $2500 on a dragon, but what happens if it dies? what happens if its infertile? These are all risks taken when dealing with live stock.

[henward]

chipping, registration..... even user funded hobby and licensing has been discussed by MAF.

believe it or not, many MAF officials believe in this... but people at the very top dont..... too hard basket.

ages ago i commented on this.

it does not benefit NZ in a big enough way to really make this happen.

the industry is not as big as we would like to beleive.

sure, it helps some LFS and some trademe parallel importers of goods....

but really, the entire reptile industry... right now anyways, does not provide nz with enough economic incentive for MAF to prioritise this hobby.

thats the problem. the reptile trade is no where near big enough, significant enough for maf to say:

"wait a minute, by destroying these animals, we are impacting businesses a lot"

so they do it.

secrecy is the biggest proboem, but that problme is caused by maf.

chicken and the egg arguament.

how do you stop it?

i reckon, a big court case, with many people - a verypublic case.

would you win?

....... might as well put money on the TAB - but if you are a gambling man....

[alanmin4304]

The economic arguement for keeping them out is easier to convince the egg heads in parliament with. Since the place is run by accountants and most people in parliament are money oriented I think it will stay the way it is for many years to come.

[Navarre]

The disease risk senario is a good point

for yeasr we were told only trade native withthose of a clean tested population base.

no salmonella test no trade.

now some papers suggest that salmonella is present in up to 75% of the native poulation

and who poo pood thsi massey based research...not the keepers of extoics or natives but the containement facilities and MAf and DoC.

Go figure