The Reptile hobby in New Zealand

[livingart]

I must also pick up on your comments about the white's tree frogs. Do you realise they have been extensivley released here over a century ago and in all likelyhood have failed to establish.

so by that statement the recent whites frogs were in all "likelyhood" smuggled in

It could easily be argued that much larger threats come from other hobbies in NZ, including aquaculture, dogs, cats and birds. Why arn't we all pushing to have them under lock and key?

it is easier to come down on reptiles as there are less of them around and they aren't cute and cuddly

[jc254]

sorry bad example on the monitor. However lets say they lay 12eggs, 8 hatch and are reared successful and sold between 5-10k. That single clutch landed that breeder a typical yearly NZ wage! However good on him i believe, its all about getting ahead in life and if they can go for it!

I am passionate about reptiles, i don't keep mass collections like some people due to time restrictions but if a monitor appeared and it was legal i would make a effort to own one because they are wicked creatures!

However how can we sacrifice one creature for another? can we really risk the importation of other reptiles if it means our natives could then be at risk? simply no.

Yes i do realize it changes from state to state, so are you suggesting that we have different reptile permits depending on the geographic zones that you are located in?

Yes it may have a smaller population than NZ but they may on a hole have a bigger reptile community to warrant such a system? Also it may not be state law that requires the system but federal law? Meaning that the whole of Auz requires this system.

Whites, i mean all it takes is one mutation in the bloodline, or two individuals that can handle the cold a little bit better than the last clutch and you have an established specie? but do you really want to run that risk?

If you try and place cats and dogs under lock and key then good luck, just happens that nearly ever New Zealand owns a furry friend could you imagine the uproar? however think of the NZ community who keep reptiles, they can be easily pushed aside and any argument they push can be struck down my MAF by just saying they are a threat to our natives. Which kiwi would argue against that?

[acanthurus]

so by that statement the recent whites frogs were in all "likelyhood" smuggled in

Was wondering if someone was going to read it that way, but the simple answer is no

There are records of the being here in the wild in the 70's and record of them being in captivity after that. Given that they are a relatively long lived animal it would not be surprising at all if there are still some floating around. Whether there are some in the wild is obviously a matter of conjecture. If there are any left it would most probably be a remnant population that will almost certainly die out in time.

[acanthurus]

Sorry jc I think I'm having trouble understanding your angle on this discussion. As far as the question of who would argue against the ban of reptiles in NZ - us! I thought that is the point of this entire thread. Are you saying we might as well just give up?

As for the system in Aus, every state sets its own laws, for example until recently it was illegal to keep any reptiles in WA. What I was saying is if they can manage to have their own independent system in the NT, with such a small population, then surely we could manage one here. Whilst they have a few keepers now, when they started there were no amateur keepers at all, so we would actually be starting at a higher level than them.

[jc254]

No certainly not.

My point that i am trying to put across is that we cant possible think that we will ever be allowed to import reptiles, MAF/DOC/ERMA just don’t want to hear of it. I am also saying that they are not just doing it to hack us off, they do have very valid reasons. We have to think realistically, NZ was separated off many millions of years ago and for that reason our natural environment has become very accustomed to how it is. Now throw in exotic species into the mix? do we really need another equivalent of the possum?

If you want to keep the reptiles then be ready to fork out the money. I mean if you can find members that are willing to pay the fees to keep their pets safe then good on them and i wish you the best of luck.

I would love to see a strict control of reptile imports but I would also love to see our endangered species returned back to natural levels. Pick one.

Sure Auz has a great reptile permit system but they have a very unattractive fish import list to match, they can only import one L number of pleco. If they want to add another specie its a expensive and long processes. In NZ our fish list it long and fully of numerous species and new fish can be added easily. I guess we cant have everything.

[Insect Direct]

Im not so sure they do have valid reasons to stop imports.

Hey if i see valid reasons i'll support them.

I'd even support banning exotics outright, if there was valid reasons for that also.

By stopping imports in 1995 or when ever it was, all that seem's to have done is put things underground. Smuggling (uncontrolled imports) seems to be going on at a completely unkown risk to our flora and fauna.

Ban exotics. People may release pets and or even try to establish wild populations, not many will be happy to have their pets destroyed. Smuggling continues, black market goes hard. More risk to our flora and fauna.

Create permit system, authorites have some gauge and control over whats actually here.

Even just a list of whats legal would be a start.

Allow imports of herps that pose little to no threat, to our flora and fauna. Do so under strict testing for disease = much less risk than we have at present.

[jc254]

To be honest i don’t think the black market in NZ warrants such attention. There are only a handful of people who can do this properly. If MAF gave out a list of legal’s then that would be great however it still wouldn’t stop the smuggling of what’s not on it. simply we want what we cant have. If MAF said we can have x, y and z someone will still want a, b, c. Why should MAF bother?

MAF wont make a import list without the public pressure, I mean why make something for a handful of people that will bring in little revenue anyway?

They may not have issued a reason but i believe it speaks for itself: Disease and establishment, the risks are just to high.

Also if there was controlled imports of specie, after they have been Q and screened they will be $10,000 anyway! do you actually know the expensive of disease screening? and for the amount of diseases that they would need to check for would be long and extensive? what happens if the reptile doesn’t clear? do they kill the whole import due to risk of contamination or re-test them? more $$$$!!! After the final bill no ordinary person would be able to afford them anyway.

[Insect Direct]

Disease and establishment, the risks are just to high.

Yep, to high to do nothing. So if nothing is done nothing will change, disease risk will remain high, and yes we may just get another possum like scenario.

Forget the money side of it. Our natives are priceless, protecting what we have is worth every peny.

There probably will always be smugglers I agree, but thats no argument to ignore it.

[jc254]

I agree fully, our natives our priceless! overseas markets would kill for some of the species that we have. They are beautiful and stunning.

However the exotics are rather cool as well, and I wouldn’t mind a 4ft monitor or iguana. However we must think of the animals that have claimed this country as its home many years before we did. Is it really fair if we keep pumping more and more animals into the environment so we can have a cool or rare specie?

[chillz]

The hobby isnt any different from any other form of live import (plants, bacteria, horses, dogs, fish) If you want it, apply for the appropriatte permits, there is always constant wingeing about how we cant have anything but has anyone actually gone through the proper process?

I am not saying you would be succesful , but there is one way of finding out.

[jc254]

I also agree that smugglers need to be held accountable. However with minor consequences whats the real point?

Many applications have been submitted, i have seen them for birds and reptiles however they are placed on the no no list.

[Aquila]

I tend to agree with this.

People are finicky and get bored of things quickly once the novelty wears off.

In Canada I had the pleasure of keeping a bearded dragon, green iguana, crested gecko, house geckos, skinks, red-eyed tree frogs, and aquatic african dwarf frogs.

I also had access to and took care of chamelions, tokay geckos, boa constrictors, box turtles, leopard geckos, poison dart frogs, different tree frogs, other snakes, etc.

But now I live in NZ and am limited in my selection. But I've also realized that out of all herps and fish i've kept before, I still felt equally about them all. Meaning that it didn't really matter if i was keeping something really cool and rare or something common because in the end, caring for each animal was equally rewarding and fun.

Maybe I got it out of my system while growing up that makes me feel this way. But I think that people here in NZ sometimes put too much value on something just because they can't have it. Like jc and insect direct mention, NZ natives are priceless and it is important to protect them as a primary focus.

If you wanna feel like you've got something exciting and rare, why not apply to keep NZ natives. Then you can go on all the overseas reptile forums and make them drool over the animals they can't have.

I agree fully, our natives our priceless! overseas markets would kill for some of the species that we have. They are beautiful and stunning.

However the exotics are rather cool as well, and I wouldn’t mind a 4ft monitor or iguana. However we must think of the animals that have claimed this country as its home many years before we did. Is it really fair if we keep pumping more and more animals into the environment so we can have a cool or rare specie?

[livingart]

Then you can go on all the overseas reptile forums and make them drool over the animals they can't have.

[repto]

also even if there was a list and such and such was on it,do you really think that would deter smugglers from targeting that species to bring in when they could source them overseas at bargain prices?

[Insect Direct]

I'd say thats likely to be happening already, there is demand for new blood, morphs and certain sex's of some species. Just another reason the import restrictions, even on species we already have, doesnt seem to work.

A list on its own wont completely deter smuggling, nothing will. It would likely hinder the market for anything not on the list, thats likely to have been smuggled. Would also help the majority who want to do the right thing, know what they can and cant keep, to a certain degree anyway.

[repto]

i`m not saying deter but rather the opposite,and as for people wanting to do the right thing......it all comes down to the price ,more so with families,mortgages etc etc?

[Insect Direct]

Well i dont see why they wouldnt smuggle them in now. I mean if its going to make it on the list, it must be already here, or am i missing the point?

[repto]

I think so,leopard geckoes for example.How hard do you think it would be for me to sell a dozen breeding age males of any colour morph?

[Insect Direct]

reasonably easy i would think.

[sneaky2]

Can someone enlighten me on how disease can pass from exotic to native?

[livingart]

how did chytrid fungus get into some native frogs?

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/frogs/5

also from here

http://wildlife.massey.ac.nz/research/c ... rticle.pdf

The Godley Head pond serves as a major source of tadpoles and frogs for the pet trade. Chytrid fungus might have been introduced into the pond by commercial collectors who had unknowingly

come into contact with it from imported stock.Moreover, tadpoles and frogs are shipped around the country for commercial sale. They may be carrying chytrid fungus but show no symptoms until after they are liberated by owners who tire of them.

[sneaky2]

so it is assumed exotic frogs which have been here 100 or so years suddenly got the FUNGUS....and its all there fault What about the reptiles????? :-?

[livingart]

did you read the articles properly?

[sneaky2]

i belive i did,what did i miss?

[livingart]

Chytrid fungus might have been introduced into the pond by commercial collectors who had unknowingly come into contact with it from imported stock