Thanks a lot Animates Botany :(

[alanmin4304]

My advice would be to learn as much about the fish you are interested in buying before you buy. Are they top, middle or bottom swimmers, are they shoalers, are they flicking, have faded colouration or not behaving properly. These are some of the signs that importers look for in order to try and diagnose problems and get a good guess at a treatment. There are many other signs as well but if they are not "acting normally" don't buy.

[Adrienne]

thats correct for fresh water fish, well the importer quarantines them for 6 weeks and maf regularly visits.

salt water fish is for less time, IIRC its only 3 weeks

Still doesn't mean they are going to survive by the time they have been through the quarantine process, then to the pet shop tanks, then to your tanks. Thats a lot of stressful bagging, travelling and different water conditions to get used to and most of these will have water shared by multiple tanks.

Four weeks in a tank at your own place under conditions you can control is a decent length of time and this way you can make sure the fish is healthy and has adequate food to build it up.

[mr pleco]

Keep in mind, Animates is a pet shop, not a veterinary hospital. You wouldn't expect Animates to give advice about your dog with a tumour, would you? The other thing is that fish are notoriously difficult, if not impossible to properly diagnose. I would guess that upwards of 99% of all fish in this country are just treated based on subjective findings rather than any diagnostic tests that can confirm what disease they have. Yes, it is great that some people have lots of experience and can use anecdotal evidence to support reasonable treatment regimes, but give those poor pet shops a break. All they have in shop are a collection of odd chemicals and potions that are sold as miracle cures and there is no guarantee they will even come close to addressing the real problem.

wow its no wonder i hardly post anymore

sorry jennifer but can you pls clarify because if i "owned a dog " i would take it to a place like animates for advise and if it had a tumour i "would expect"them to tell me to go to the nearest veterinary hospital see i wouldnt know it had a tumour because im NOT a veterinarian

And fish are notoriously difficult if not impossible to properly diagnose you say yet there are hundreds of books and even threads on here of diseases and what to look for and how to treat / there are hundreds of success stories of treated fish and survival rates probably from those silly few stores who pay for their staff to get educated on such things or show them what to ask and look for when diagnosing and pobably those silly few stores who have a few comprehensive books on such things under their counter so they can discuss and try to clarify with their customers what the symptoms are like or evn those same silly stores that invite th customer to bring in the fish for a more thorough investigation

i do agree that most likely 99% of diagnosis is abit of guesswork or should i say process of elimination because it does seem a bit hard to find a vet that will x-ray or catscan my fish nowdays an trying to get them to take blood pls,dont get me started, and since my fish hae taken a lifelong vow of silence it seems askingthem whats thematter dosent have the same effect

so it is good common sense you say for petshops to stuff their shelves with chemicals they know little about and just hand them out like lollies whenever i come in with a problem

All they have in shop are a collection of odd chemicals and potions that are sold as miracle cures and there is no guarantee they will even come close to addressing the real problem.

is that really yr expected result from petshops ??

better yet they should have a sign "all care no resposiblilty taken " just like my mechanic does and when the preverbale hits the wall lets all hail jennifer who says " lets give these petshops a break" because they need to earn a living too and if you dont buy more fish from them from their mistakes then how are they to survive

no thanks mrs FNZAS executive with comments like those its no wonder this hobby is sinking faster than Chris Carter at a mardi gra

not only are you damaging the hobby you have jst painted every shop with the same brush and i know that there are two really good hard working specialised fishshops out here that do not need yr kind of comments

[Morcs]

when you do get a person that can help and have all the experience and answers, they can't pay them enough min wage

Incorrect. I work at Animates because probably the most reputatable fish shop in the country couldnt pay me remotely close to what I was requesting.

But that is a separate argument.

[Scottie841]

Most pet shop staff are kids fresh out of school, they don't have the knowledge it takes years to it and when you do get a person that can help and have all the experience and answers, they can't pay them enough min wage what a joke I know my knowledge is worth more than that. So why would you want to stay, also I would never buy a fish from a tank that has sick fish always (eye ball ) them have a good look, also make sure they are displaying normal behavior as well,

The best thing you can do is do your own research don't rely on someone else oh well thats my 2 cents lol.

Tania got her job after 7 years of working and getting paid more than she is now but we agreed that I would be the main financial provider so that she could do what she enjoys and she is good at. She is experienced and has a vet on call to give advice if she can not figure out what is wrong. A lot of people work with animals because they want to be able to help the animals and educate people on how to look after their animals so the animal can have a better life not just because they cant find any other job.

[A-town...]

AW DAMN LOL

[phoenix44]

I don't get paid minimum wage.

The last job that paid me minimum wage was 6 years ago, when I was in 6th form and worked in a butchery.

$6.80 per hour felt great.

[Scottie841]

I don't get paid minimum wage.

The last job that paid me minimum wage was 6 years ago, when I was in 6th form and worked in a butchery.

$6.80 per hour felt great.

Now people are lucky enough to get $12.75 which is more than twice what my first full time job paid

[phoenix44]

hey your avatar nods at me!

[mr pleco]

always thought you were a dixie scrubber p44

I don't get paid minimum wage.

The last job that paid me minimum wage was 6 years ago, when I was in 6th form and worked in a butchery.

$6.80 per hour felt great.

[phoenix44]

a dish scrubber? :lol:

hahaha. never. I love cutting into a carcass. Its the best ever. Most satisfying feeling when you chop up a massive cow and get all those cuts of meat :lol:

Now people are lucky enough to get $12.75 which is more than twice what my first full time job paid

I can get twice that and i still complain :lol:

[Joshlikesfish]

I was told i'd be called for a job interview after speaking to the manager. The interview would have either been in 1 or 2 weeks. That was 8 weeks ago...

[Joshlikesfish]

Now people are lucky enough to get $12.75 which is more than twice what my first full time job paid

What year was that and what was the rate? I'll give you it in real terms ^^

[phoenix44]

If you can't subtract 6 years from 2010 you can't work out real or nominal terms

[Scottie841]

What year was that and what was the rate? I'll give you it in real terms ^^

It was 11 or 12 years ago and it was $5.50. "Real terms" means nothing when it is the fact that I used to live on $40 a week after my bills were paid (if i did overtime). That had to cover food, gas, smokes and entertainment

[phoenix44]

I love how we can take a thread and throw it off track.

Josh - $5.50 was real terms as he used a historical reference. you can convert that to nominal terms now in 2010.

[Joshlikesfish]

Oh my bad. I wasn't reading the thread just felt like jumping in with some practical from economics

[mr pleco]

Incorrect. I work at Animates because probably the most reputatable fish shop in the country couldnt pay me remotely close to what I was requesting.

But that is a separate argument.

or maybe they just dont rate you very highly ?

[Jennifer]

My post was clearly misinterpreted. I wasn't implying that shops are bad or horrible in any way shape or form, I was merely trying to point out that we have very high expectations of non-medically trained people and even to those of us with a bit of experience in fishkeeping it is a lot of guesswork to diagnose and treat fish diseases so we can't expect perfect answers from anyone. The take home message is to go and talk to as many people as you can and don't expect any advice you get to be 100% suitable for your particular case.

The reason I brought up the chemicals and medications at the LFS is because time and again we have discussed less than ideal marketing of pet products (the gold fish bowl/mini tank for instance) and yet these continue to be sold, with or without a good outcome for the animal, but that is the economics of business - if a customer wants something and you don't stock it, they will just go somewhere else so you stock it even if you know it is not ideal, or you hold true to your beliefs and risk the harsh economic impacts. Anyway, a number of over-the-counter medications do not have scientific evidence of efficacy, which is one of the reasons why I question them. That said, I am a huge supporter of my local shops. Even though I can get products and livestock at wholesale prices, I choose to pay my money at local shops to help ensure that they all will continue to thrive in my community. While I know that some shops provide better advice than others, and I do expect them to provide reasonable suggestions about care, I believe it is in everyone's best interest to research the issue at hand and use a broad range of evidence to guide your own decisions rather than make strong judgments about shop assistants who are doing the best they can.

This hobby is growing massively and I am happy to see memberships have increased significantly in the short time I have been in office. The Federation is full of members who just want to connect and learn from eachother and while we can't please everybody, we strive to represent all with a clear and positive vision for the future.

My opinions are my own. I am not perfect nor do I propose to be any kind of all knowing authority but I do appreciate the privilege to freely post my thoughts and opinions here on this forum like anybody else. I only can draw upon my personal experience in an effort to help others and connect with this great community and hopefully some of our experience will help others who are seeking to improve their success in the hobby. I have put my experience on the line and have accepted a role as an executive and if that makes me a target for personal attacks, so be it.

[alanmin4304]

Well said. Tropical fish are perishable goods and I think we should all strive to find out what fish are compatable and what is a healthy looking fish. The pet shops around here are struggling at the moment and I would therefore expect them to sell you whatever you ask for. I accept that if I ask a shop assistant. "What plant is that?" I will get the answer. "$3.50 a bunch." so I don't ask. I think Jennifer is correct---the staff are not vets and most vets would be one page ahead of you in the same book anyway, so learn all you can and don't expect vetinary advice from a shop assistant.

[Cricketman]

There are plenty of shops around that do a great job of teaching staff how to treat, look after, and teach customers how to look after their animals.

Animates is not one of them in my book. I had the same experience as Paul_r. The likes of Kiwipets, Animal Antics, Wonderworld, Carine, are all local places where I would rather shop knowing

A) I will speak to someone who knows what they are talking about.

B) I am supporting a local business, rather than a chain store.

C) They specialise in my hobby, and take time and effort to pay their fish people more than minimum wage and invest in them to keep them for more than a few months at a time.

If you had a bad experience at ANY other type of shop on more than one occasion, (think 4 or 5) would you return there and spend your hard earned money knowing that it is going to a chain store that does little for local market, and is not really interested enough in your hobby to employ/ train their staff in more than how to catch the fish, and how to meet a quota.

If 4 out of 5 can get it right and one is seriously lacking, does that not send up a red flag? does that not show that something is wrong?

And when this one store is a main advertiser, and a point of call that 90% of joe public can identify with, does that not make them ethically and morally bound to provide a better service?

Especially in a sector where people do little research, and their primary source of information is that kid showing off her g-string and telling customers that they can take the tank and a whole plethora of fish home on the same day and "cycling" to them means tour de france!

I think it is downright shameful.

[Morcs]

With all this Animates bashing, a separate area of the forum should be made...

[smidey]

With all this Animates bashing, a separate area of the forum should be made...

do you think it is unjustified or do you believe peoples opinions?

[alanmin4304]

As a bit of an aside: The people who I would realy trust advice from are the older generation who have spent years importing and quarantining fish. There are a few around down here. One of the difficulties is that the medications they use are often not the ones that are available from your local pet shop but are prescription only medications. The regime has more recently changed and now an importer cannot treat fish with medications of their choice when the think there is a problem. They have to treat as prescribed by Maf (by which time the fish are all dead). It is often cheaper and easier to destroy the fish than go through the required rituals.

[Cricketman]

With all this Animates bashing, a separate area of the forum should be made...

It is an opinion, one that has been concreted by re-occuring evidence, not only from my own experience but that of others. I can only speak of the Tauranga Animates as that is the only one that I have visited. (the same one that had a pacu in with the turtles, then claimed it had never been in store when the SPCA arrived.)

Factually dis-prove my points... then I may change them.