paul_r Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 a while ago you may remember i was helping advertising a track day that was being run by someone at the race track in taupo. because of a number of reasons including a broken hand (unable to legally drive/race) i pretty much stopped having anything to do with it. basically they had booked the day 12 Sept, deposit of $xxxx.xx was due 20th(ish) Aug lots of people were interested, only 6 ended up paying their $130 each the 6 lots of $130 were each individually transferred into racetracks accounts and invoices were issued to the organiser as each transfer went through. as the due date came around and not enough people had paid the organiser cancelled and will not refund money to entrants as when organiser had advertised on forums about track day they stated "NO REFUNDS" i was not one of the 6 people that paid their ammounts so this does not affect me directly but some friends have lost out, and has left a sour taste in my mouth is there anything legally that the entrants can do to get their money back? been years since i done my law paper and this is definatly ringing bells that something is not right here. in my mind the liability should fall onto the organiser as they signed the contracts etc and entrants should get their money back. something to do with consumer gurantees act, or duty of care etc (sorry mind cannot remember exact terminology that i am looking for) anyone able to offer help or advice, let me know if more information is required cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BikBok Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 that sux.. sorry I'm not a lwyer but that really doesn't sound right! The entrants didn't pull out so it should be the organiser who refunds In my non legal opinon. To me it would be similar to the laws governing show event sales and I found a link in consumer: http://www.consumer.org.nz/reports/buyi ... conditions Here are some common problems: Cancelled shows: You should get a full refund of your ticket price plus any booking fee if the show's cancelled. But you won't be compensated for costs such as airline tickets if the event's cancelled for a reason outside the promoter's control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Do you have a local Community Law Office? They offer free advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 The 'no refunds' would only be valid if they delivered on their goods...which they did not. So unless they had it somewhere in writing that this amount would not be refundable even if the show got canceled, then I think those people can sue for breach of contract. Effectively, they payed for a service that they did not get through no fault of their own. It is not up to them to ensure that there were enough willing participants, that is up to the event organizers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 In my wifes dove release business, we never use to take deposits but due to people cutting back on costs, in the last 6 months she has had 3 jobs canceled. We will now be taking deposits that will be nonrefundable if canceled by her customer but if we have to cancel (due to weather) they will get a full refund. Problem with not getting deposits is that when the customer cancels, you have lost the chance to offer that service on that day and there fore have had a loss of income. They way I see it is that the track has a no refund policy so that they dont end up with say 52 canceled week ends per year and they will be able to opperate and stay viable next year. If your friend isnt offering a refund and has not paid the track anything then a smack should help convince him to do so. Wether by hand or letter from a lawyer is over to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_r Posted August 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 thanks alot for your advice so far she appears to be changing her story alot and seems like she is scared that she is dealing with switched on people. I've spoken to my lawyer plus other lawyers!! I am considered the "MIDDLE MAN", the entrants pay me and then I pay the track. They have got "NO REFUNDS" for the terms and hirage contract and I signed that which means I am unable to get the money back off them to give you a refund. I am not refunding this money out of my own pocket as I am a student, and I have no job!!! Please accept my apologies THANKS the last bit of contact from her. it does appear that the entry fees she received did go straight through to taupo racetrack so appears she has not tried to take any money herself etc however that stilll doesnt change the fact that 6 mates have paid $130 each to race and now cannot do so and so far cannot get their money back. cheers for the advice Barrie looks like a letter from a lawyer is next on the cards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaNs Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Letters from lawyers do a lot of good, do it on behalf of everyone that paid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heir Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Doesn't this breach the Fair Trading Act?? Your friends paid for a "service" they never received - They should get a full-refund. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 he way I understand it is that the track is well within their right to hold the money as its stated conditions are no refund. The problem is that the organiser has not told the people that and as she has paid the moneies recieved to the track, she can-not give a refund Now the problem becomes between friends I honestly dont blame the track at all as they have costs and may well have been able to let the track to someone else but the organiser has made a mistake by paying far too early and not getting the deposit from all concerned meaning that the few have paid the deposit for those that didnt coff up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heir Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 he way I understand it is that the track is well within their right to hold the money as its stated conditions are no refund. The problem is that the organiser has not told the people that and as she has paid the moneies recieved to the track, she can-not give a refund Now the problem becomes between friends I honestly dont blame the track at all as they have costs and may well have been able to let the track to someone else but the organiser has made a mistake by paying far too early and not getting the deposit from all concerned meaning that the few have paid the deposit for those that didnt coff up Unfortunately you have a very valid point that I missed reading earlier. I thought it read "They didn't state NO REFUNDS" So yes Barrie is right, if it said "No Refunds" then your friends accepted those terms before they purchased the tickets. Different story if it was no refunds due to reasons outside their control - like, say - bad weather for example, then yes, they would have breached the Fair Trading Act by not supplying the serviced your friends had paid for and not providing a full refund. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Unfortunately you have a very valid point that I missed reading earlier. I thought it read "They didn't state NO REFUNDS" So yes Barrie is right, if it said "No Refunds" then your friends accepted those terms before they purchased the tickets. Different story if it was no refunds due to reasons outside their control - like, say - bad weather for example, then yes, they would have breached the Fair Trading Act by not supplying the serviced your friends had paid for and not providing a full refund. Hope this helps. I disagree. The organizer cannot take people's deposit then CHOOSE to not hold the event because not enough people signed up. That is in their control and CANNOT be included under a NO REFUNDS clause even if it was stated. This does fall under the Fair Trading Act...people payed for a service which they did not receive through no fault of their own. Because your friend is a middleman and is not the one who actually holds the money, I don't know whether she can be pursued legally. She did do wrong by not passing on all of the information of the organizer, but I believe it would be a waste of money to go after her. It would most likely end in her proving that the money was given to the organizer in which, it is the organizer that needs to be brought to court. There may be a chance that the judge holds her accountable for the money and then it is up to her to sue the track separately, but time would be better spent all bringing a defense against the organizer...particularly if 'friendships' are involved. Anyways, as we are not lawyers here (well maybe some are...i dunno) and we can't solely rely on a few papers we may have done in uni related to law, I think it would be best for your friends to get professional advice...which looks like its headed that way anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 ok. so you need to re read the policy document outlining the terms and conditions. i think it will say, there is a quorum needed - and if that number is not met - then the organiser may choose to not hold the event. If any deposits are non refundable - and that is also on the policy document then they are indeed non refundable. the refund on the deposit will depend on "acts of god" - weather conditions, natural calamities etc. Now for the important questions - 1. Is the organiser of the event the owner / operator of the track? 2. was any thing signed? 3. i presume this was on kiwibiker? where were the terms and conditions advertised and/or displayed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heir Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Well you can take it to the disputes tribunal if you want. If someone purchased tickets with a "No Refunds" policy, they obviously knew what you were getting in for. It's just like if you purchased something from a shop that said "No Returns" If they didn't specifically state no refunds unless cancellation due to bad weather etc legally you won't have a foot to stand on in regards to the Fair Trading Act because they haven't misled or misguided you. They were honest and upfront that they would not be able to refund the money, thus making it a fair trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 I disagree. The organizer cannot take people's deposit then CHOOSE to not hold the event because not enough people signed up. That is in their control and CANNOT be included under a NO REFUNDS clause even if it was stated. This does fall under the Fair Trading Act...people payed for a service which they did not receive through no fault of their own. Because your friend is a middleman and is not the one who actually holds the money, I don't know whether she can be pursued legally. She did do wrong by not passing on all of the information of the organizer, but I believe it would be a waste of money to go after her. It would most likely end in her proving that the money was given to the organizer in which, it is the organizer that needs to be brought to court. There may be a chance that the judge holds her accountable for the money and then it is up to her to sue the track separately, but time would be better spent all bringing a defense against the organizer...particularly if 'friendships' are involved. Anyways, as we are not lawyers here (well maybe some are...i dunno) and we can't solely rely on a few papers we may have done in uni related to law, I think it would be best for your friends to get professional advice...which looks like its headed that way anyway. The way I read /understand what has been written is that it was cancelled by the friend/middle man due to not enough interest To me the track did not cancell it? Paul is this correct? If it is that way I understand it to be, the track has done nothing at all wrong If the track has canceled, I agree, they have broken the contract and should refund Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_r Posted August 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 taupo racetrack has done nothing wrong what so ever, they are basically operating their business and no one has any problems with that. the problem is that organiser took 6 friends money which they paid to race, now the organiser cancelled the track day and will not refund money to friends. (basically friends paid good money to race, not for a chance to race) organiser had signed documents with taupo racetrack, booking the 12 sept and although im not sure what it exactly was she signed but im assuming was something like she accepts liability to pay deposit in full, if full ammount is not paid by 12 sept track will be unavailable for racing. Organiser stated on many forums that there were no refunds, as some others have pointed out to me that this usually applies if someone cancels, or changes their mind etc and does not want to race Phoenix's questions 1. Is the organiser of the event the owner / operator of the track? 2. was any thing signed? 3. i presume this was on kiwibiker? where were the terms and conditions advertised and/or displayed? 1. no organiser has no relation to taupo racetrack 2.she had signed a document with race track to book it, not sure exactly what it contained though 3.was possibly on kiwibiker, was on alot of forums, starletcentral, toyspeed, nzhondas etc heres a copy of her ad from starletcentral Confirmed date is: Saturday 12th September 2009 Price is $130.00 Per Car We are racing on Track 2 - not track 3... Payment is to be made in full by the 20th August 2009, PM me your email address and Ill send you my details NO REFUNDS GIVEN Performance Car is planning to be there taking pics and talking to people. So make your cars look pretty Track Day Programme 9.00am Gates open, please be there early so we can get more time racing . Car inspection 9.30am Driver Briefing 9.45am Track 2 Cruise Tour - everyone will go around the track for 3 laps 10am Track opens for racing 12:30pm Lunch. 1:00pm Restart 4.30pm Track & pits must be clean and everyone off the venue Competitors need to be scrutinized before the drivers briefing. Get to the track early! Drivers requirements for the day Basic requirements for the street cars at the track day are: - Warrant of Fitness - Battery secure - Checks in engine bay for water leaks or oil leaks - Checks body parts - make sure nothing will come off the car ( eg. bonnet, Spoiler, canards or diffuser. You can take your bumper off. - General Checks Wear and Safety Helmet: Up to your personal preference, open face or full face, no cycle helmets Overalls: Race suit or cotton (mechanic style) overalls. Fire Extinguisher: Not a must have but prefer to have one fitted, we will offer you guys some at a cheaper price ( will be posted shortly ) Is only 30 to 40 dollars at Super Cheap Auto, and make sure is metal bracket If you have one fitted make sure if till showing green on the indicator which means is in good working order Rules 1)No Drifting 2) Speed Limit 40km/hr in pit lane. 3) No ALCOHOL at all time within the premisies I also need 10 People to help with Marshalling for the day. PM me and ill give you all the details and ill put your name down Racers list: Here is how the group / class sorted for the day Please read the followiing and select your class A Class Pro Class requirement - on Semi or Full Slick - race car - No Street Tyres!!! - Pro Drivers - Will go for 7 laps+ and 1 Cool down lap B Class Semi - on semi or street - Driver with Track experience - will go for 6 laps and 1 cool down lap C Class Street - On street or semi - Driver with 1 or 2 Track experience - There will be experience driver for peer to peer support - Will Go for 5 laps 1 Cool down lap D Class Begginner - On Street Tyres - no experience - Want to learn more driver - There will be experience driver for peer to peer support - Out on the track for cruise and their own pace - Will go for 5 laps 1 cool down lap 1. we are planning on hiring a ambulance for the day, subject to the amount of racers. (the more racers, the more funds, the more likely) 2. if anyone is interested in racing, please post up on here or PM 3. if anyone is interested in helping out on the day, for example. we need some flag marshals. please post up on here Cheers Guys so yes no refunds was stated not sure how relevant this is to the situation the way i look at it you dont pay for a rugby ticket, and then not get a refund if the game does not go ahead not sure if friends have any foot to stand on to get their money back, my knowledge isnt enough to get anywhere really. 6 friends loosing $130 each = $780 bit of a pain for all concerned. would like to help them out if possible thanks heaps guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 1. no organiser has no relation to taupo racetrack go get a lawyer and get your money back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Well you can take it to the disputes tribunal if you want. If someone purchased tickets with a "No Refunds" policy, they obviously knew what you were getting in for. It's just like if you purchased something from a shop that said "No Returns" If they didn't specifically state no refunds unless cancellation due to bad weather etc legally you won't have a foot to stand on in regards to the Fair Trading Act because they haven't misled or misguided you. They were honest and upfront that they would not be able to refund the money, thus making it a fair trade. If you purchase something from the shop, you still HAVE the item you paid for, even if they won't refund it. If you buy tickets for a concert, and then it is canceled, you get your money back. If you have bought NON REFUNDABLE tickets on a plane, and then the flight is canceled they don't tell you "sorry, go home, too bad for you they are NON REFUNDABLE"...they stick you on the next available flight because you PAID for it and it was not your fault. I still think that your friends have legal grounds for a dispute, but it depends on if there was a clause anywhere for minimum amount of people required for the event to go forth. Who made that rule that all the money needs to be in by Aug 20th? You cannot punish the people who DID pay their money before the deadline (by not giving them a refund) by canceling the event. Personally I think it is really stupid of this organizer not to collect all the money from everyone before handing it off to the racetrack, and had she done this, the whole mess could have been avoided. The party at fault here is the one who will not release the deposit. If she was the one who canceled the event, then she is obligated to refund the money. Did the track force her to cancel because not all the money had come through? If they are the ones that ultimately hold the money of the people who did pay, and DID enforce the organizer to have to cancel, then I believe they are in the wrong. If the organizer canceled independently, then she is responsible for the refunds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_r Posted August 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 organiser cancelled independantly. she had over 30 people interested in racing but for whatever reason only 6 had paid up by the time the deposit for taupo track was due on 20 aug (this date was set by race track) had no money herself (aparantly) so could not afford to go through with the transaction, and had used the 6 entrants fees to go towards the deposit to taupo track from her. she cancelled, race track do not give refunds to deposits (this is 100% fair enough) in theory, organiser looses nothing, 6 people loose out on their $130 and get nothing in return will get everyone together and go from there, lawyer looks to be the way to go. off to citizens advice bureau(sp) to see where to get a lawyer from cheers again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 I think the 6 people should be allowed to go and race then Goodluck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Your lawyer would be costing way more than $130. Most would want that much for the piece of paper to write the letter on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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