The "Spectacular Failure"

[Barrie]

Unfortunately the whole of society is becoming more violent. It is no good saying parts are becoming more violent (but not my part). The reality is that 80% of kiwis that voted want it to be legal for them to be violent with their kids. We need to look closely at our society but we refuse. As stated earlier we have some realy bad things going on here. We have a lot of abused kids (and it is not in any particular part of society). We have one of the highest figures in the world for people in jail (but we can't see that it is not working and still want to lock people up for longer but don't want to pay for it.) We want to make it legal to use violence on our kids so we can teach them that violence is the way to get what you want. We call an all out punch up on the rugby field a hard game. We have that many people in jail that we are going to put the next lot into containers and put the management out to private enterprise, yet we cannot see that something is not right.

Lets face it---we live in a sick society. The only way to fix a problem is to firstly admit that we have a problem and I don't hear a lot of people saying that.

OK Alan

By your above statement, the best possible solution would to have a system similar to Iran or Irac where the punishments are so hard and often final that all crime disappares over a very short time. We should have dictators to rule us totally?

Comments like "The reality is that 80% of kiwis that voted want it to be legal for them to be violent with their kids."are really unhelpfull and totally incorrect factually

Suphews comments are just as unhelpfull

Do you really belive that if we didnt have this referundum 9mil would have gone into the schools.Honestly?

There has been around 100 cases where parents have been using valuable police resorces for giving a light smack

we also know that easy cases like this that are high profile get more effort put into them than a simple break in

[suphew]

If you consider smacking to be a violent act then Alans statement is 100% correct.

Most of the criminals in our jails are there for crimes of violence, teaching kids that smacking is a way to get someone to do what you want has been the NZ way for ever as has our increasing prison population. Putting some one in jail is also a violent thing to do to them, so they are just coming out with the idea that violence as a way to solve your problems further reinforced. It's time to considered that if something isn't working (like our prison system, and our young peoples behaviour) doing the same thing harder isn't the answer. Does any one really think that criminals really think about how many years they are going to get and weight it up before they give the wife a bash?

[BikBok]

Unfortunately the whole of society is becoming more violent. It is no good saying parts are becoming more violent (but not my part). The reality is that 80% of kiwis that voted want it to be legal for them to be violent with their kids. ...We want to make it legal to use violence on our kids so we can teach them that violence is the way to get what you want.

that is really twisting it alanmin... talk to those who voted no and ask them if they want to be more violent with their kids!!! I voted NO and there is no way I want to be violent with my kids .. no way. I have never and will never hit my kids or whacked them. i have smacked them on their butts or on a hand when they were preschoolers .. as I was when I was a kid.. always in a controlled manner. It was my Dad who smacked me, and I love him to bits, he is the gentlest sweetest man you could come across.

We call an all out punch up on the rugby field a hard game. We have that many people in jail that we are going to put the next lot into containers and put the management out to private enterprise, yet we cannot see that something is not right.

Lets face it---we live in a sick society. The only way to fix a problem is to firstly admit that we have a problem and I don't hear a lot of people saying that.

I don't like nor appreciate violence in the name of a sport game. It comes as no surprise that our sportsmen have more than their fair share of high testosterone levels. It's great that the energy is channeled into a game.. but some just don't know when to stop.

[alanmin4304]

It does not matter what flavour you put on it smacking is violence. You can call it responsible parental correction, spare the rod and spoil the child, a disciplined and reasonable open handed smack on the bottom---it is violence. What else is it? Violence breeds violence and I believe society is becoming more violent so what is it that we are not doing right? If smacking our kids is the answer should we whack them harder and more often to reduce the violence in society? I doubt it.

[twinkles]

we shouldn't be putting any more money into buying kids shoes and breakfasts at school. The whole telethon idea got my back up. Simply there is no excuse in nz for a parent to not supply those things to their children. If a parent can't afford to buy a pair of shoes for their child for $1 from the op shop, they ought to be investegated for being a shoddy parent. And the same goes for food. The benefit gives poor parents enough money to feed and clothe their kids, if you can't afford new branded clothing then you go to the op shops. If you can't afford coco pops you buy porridge, its alot healthier anyway. If you can't afford porridge and $1 shoes because you spent all your money on ciggies and beer, you ought to have your kids taken off you.

I spent years struggling on the dpb, and it is very hard, but if you want whats best for your children then you sacrifice those extra treat things and you can get by without your kids missing out. The schools around here and that my daughter goes to are all decile 1, poor area, but my daughter has 15 pairs of shoes to chose from for school, and a good healthy breakfast every morning. If a parent's not managing that then they need a good hard look at themselves, and society needs to realise that its these parents who don't care if their kids are going to school barefoot and hungry who end up beating them to death.

[BikBok]

If you consider smacking to be a violent act then Alans statement is 100% correct.

I don't consider a controlled smack an act of violence.. there is no intent to injure or maim.

Does any one really think that criminals really think about how many years they are going to get and weight it up before they give the wife a bash?

no ! that's exactly right! they don't think about the consequences of giving the wife a bash.. nor do child beaters think about the law when they lay into their children.. exactly why children will continue to be maimed and killed despite the law. The only ones that will think twice are those who are already showing restraint and common sense when they smack their children. SO who is being punished?? the good parents who have considered their child rearing techniques, who have made a conscientious decision , who do no let their temper get a hold of them.

There is already provision within the law to prosecute people who violently abuse their children.. why do we need another law which will punish good parents who have caused no harm to their children.

[BikBok]

we shouldn't be putting any more money into buying kids shoes and breakfasts at school. The whole telethon idea got my back up. Simply there is no excuse in nz for a parent to not supply those things to their children. If a parent can't afford to buy a pair of shoes for their child for $1 from the op shop, they ought to be investegated for being a shoddy parent. And the same goes for food. The benefit gives poor parents enough money to feed and clothe their kids, if you can't afford new branded clothing then you go to the op shops. If you can't afford coco pops you buy porridge, its alot healthier anyway. If you can't afford porridge and $1 shoes because you spent all your money on ciggies and beer, you ought to have your kids taken off you.

I spent years struggling on the dpb, and it is very hard, but if you want whats best for your children then you sacrifice those extra treat things and you can get by without your kids missing out. The schools around here and that my daughter goes to are all decile 1, poor area, but my daughter has 15 pairs of shoes to chose from for school, and a good healthy breakfast every morning. If a parent's not managing that then they need a good hard look at themselves, and society needs to realise that its these parents who don't care if their kids are going to school barefoot and hungry who end up beating them to death.

I agree with you in theory twinkles. But it's not the kids fault if their parents won't feed and cloth them properly. They get little say in the matter. I work at a low decile school and it is heartbreaking seeing how many kids come to school with no breakfast and inadequately clothed. The school runs a breakfast club, at least then, the kids can start the day with food in their tummy. yes, some parents abuse this and send their kids to school knowing the school will feed them .. but there's a fair few who would not otherwise have breakfast.

[twinkles]

We need to change our attitude as a society, away from smacking being acceptable, but the only way to really do that is to put some money into decent parenting courses for first parents, and follow up. The statement that is repeated over and over again by pro-smaking people is that other ways don't work, or are just as damaging. Which shows a disturbing lack of knowledge of other ways to parent. If everyone having a baby was required to learn about other ways of dealing with problems, and then attended follow up groups until their children were 5, we wouldn't see so many abused kids imo. Plunket could run it, like how they do the well child checks every 6 months/year until 5. It would give those at risk parents better strategies for dealing with bad behaviour, someone at plunket they know and can turn to for help and advice, and a group of local parents with children the same age and the same parenting ideas that they can connect with and share experience.

A broad intervention like that, from birth, is the only way we're going to have any affect on the parents who think smaking for everything is the only way to go, and who don't really know what to do with their kids except for how their family raises them. I'm not talking about people who chose to smack their kids occasionally, but about the parents who are poor and desperate and stuck in this cycle of violence in a family who thinks its ok to bash your kids up for any indiscretion.

I'd think every new mother wants whats best for their child, and doesn't want to ever have to hurt them, but alot of people don't know any other way to parent and end up really hurting them because they don't know what else to do.

[twinkles]

but thats what i'm saying bikbok, yes feed the kids if they need it but something should be done about their parents. Feeding them at school is only fixing the most obvious problem, nothing is being done to address whats going on in these kids homes. The schools shouldn't be expected to do it, there needs to be someone to take action and really look at how these kids are living and what their parents are doing. I wonder how many of the kids who get breakfast at school, never get another meal as good.

[alanmin4304]

If smacking is not violence then what is it?

[BikBok]

If smacking is not violence then what is it?

you keep repeating yourself alanmin.. we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Violence is uncontrolled and turbulent and unrelenting till the fury has exhausted.

On the other hand a controlled considered smack is over in 5 seconds, and does not injure or damage the child.

What about parents who yell and rant and rave and scream at a child.. are they not also abusing that child? Words can cause just as much long lasting damage as a violent beating. So it all comes back to control! control of anger!

[twinkles]

the people who shout abuse at their kids are just as bad as the people who beat them, and i admit i worry that some parents who are used to belting their kids will now spend more time verbally abusing them instead. There's no point making it illegal for people to smack their kids if nothing is offered to those parents by way of learning new parenting methods. There needs to be a wide angle approach to tackling the child abuse problem, outlawing smacking should just be one little part backed up with alot more help/teaching for parents, and better intervention for at risk kids.

[livingart]

violence definition depends on your upbringing and culture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence

[bronze-dragon]

can you not read alan?

isint this whole thread basicly telling you over and OVER again what most peoples definition of a smack is?

pretty sure yelling at your child would be no doubt considered violence by some people, yet most parents yell at their child to go to bed or go to "time out".

[alanmin4304]

I can read perfectly well and I have done enough marshal arts and been beaten by my parents enough to know what violence is. You are kidding yourself if you think smacking is not violence. If it did not hurt why would you do it? I agree that "verbal asault" is not the way to go either. What kids need is clear rules and consistant consequences as I said earlier. Smacking can be a consequence but I believe there are better ones. We may have to agree to disagree (as I said earlier) but anyone who thinks smacking is not violence is trying to become an ostrich. If it was not violence then I would be able to give you a controlled open handed smack on the bottom without risk of being arrested and I don't think my chances would be good. Break the cycle and do your kids a favour. It actually feels realy good to be thanked by your adult children for not hitting them. Try it and do yourself a favour as well.

[David R]

If you hit your kids hard enough to leave any sort of mark or evidence then you deserve to be prosecuted IMO. If you don't then you've got nothing to worry about....

8)

[Scottie841]

This is likely to offend people but I think it needs to be said...

Everyone keeps saying NZ is getting more violent and more domestic violence ect. In my opinion there is a direct link with the increase of domestic violence and the reduction of corporal punishment.

If you look at it violence is becoming a problem because noone know respect. 50 years ago you learnt values and respect. If you disrespected your elders you got a smack and when you grew up you showed that same respect and where less likely to smack you kids because you knew how it felt. Now people that call themself parents (stupid 15 years olds that got drunk and went at it at some party. Probably not knowing the guy for more than 5 min) do not know what it is like and they hit their kids like they would hit someone in the pub.

I think the hippies that are saying we are getting violent and need to stop should look at their parents and their parents and then go tell them how much of a failure they are because they were horrible parents that do not know how to raise good children.

I was smacked and I think I turned out OK. I have not been in prison, charged with assault or anything else major. I have a good job and a good partner (who was also smacked and turned out ok)

[VinsonMassif]

you keep repeating yourself alanmin.. we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Violence is uncontrolled and turbulent and unrelenting till the fury has exhausted.

In Your Opinion BikBok.

A whole lot of people in the world state that very same opinion when shooting a gun.

It is controlled therefore alright.

You keep repeating yourself also.

Violence is violence.

And you will keep on repeating yourself justifying a violent act because you accept that this form of violence is acceptable and needed.

[paul_r]

when growing up i was smached and hit by belts, kettle cord, alcathene pipe etc.

was never the first form of punishment etc to try stop me doing wrong, only the last until i grew old enough that a smack had no effect, wished i didnt laugh when being hit as was from then on made to milk the cows for doing wrong instead of getting hit. give me a whack with kettle cord any day

didnt do me any harm, taught me respect and to be responsible for my actions. i am not violent, quite the opposite, i would not like to see how i turned out if i wasnt smacked.

annoys me to see todays kids talking back to parents, getting away with anything they like, not caring about what concequences their actions may bring.

"go sit in the corner for 15 minutes" no way that would have worked for me, what a joke

parents being procecuted for teaching disciplin to their kids by way of a smack, i disagree with this 100%, beating your kids was already against the law, this new anti smacking law will not and hasnt stopped parents beating their kids.

for those of you old(experienced) enough to get the cane at school, what effect did this have on you?

have never had the answer to this id like to compare todays school against a school where the cane was in force

[alanmin4304]

I was smacked with a ruler every time I picked up a pen to write with my left hand. I was beaten with a copper stick until one day it broke. I have had hairbrushes broken on my backside by my mother and my head smashed into my brothers for argueing and a headache for the rest of the day, all of these things on many occasions. I have had 6 strokes with the cane many times and strapped on the hand with a leather strap at primary school and I have spent the best part of my life trying to overcome the damage caused by it. That is how I know it does not work and I vowed to break the cycle (and that does work). It is only in the last few years that I have been able to forgive and stop hating my parents. I remember sitting with my father as he was dying and wishing I didn't hate him so much for being a bully and only giving up the hidings when I was training at martial arts and big enough to give it back.

[Scottie841]

I remember not that long ago a lady out the front of work that had a young boy with her. The boy did not want to walk any further (judging by the bags the lady had with her the had been shopping all day) so he was crying and saying he was tired and wanted to sit down and have a rest. She then turned to him (in the rain) and said if you dont behave I will make you sit here and have a time out for 5 min. That is when the kid stopped crying sat down and had the rest he wanted the mother on the other hand got angry that the kid was happy and yelled at him for being such a pain.

paul_r: I totaly agree a time out would not have worked for me and I think I would not be the man I am now without a good smack when I was being bad

alanmin4304: There is a big difference between a smack and what you have just described. You are describing a violent and calculating bully not an open handed smack on the butt. I think you need - edit Admin - look at the bigger picture. Smack is not beating you children it is a short sharp shock that leaves no mark or headache for the rest of the day.

[alanmin4304]

I think the people that need to pull their head in are those that think any form of smacking is not violence. If it is not legal to do it to your neighbour how can you kid yourself it is not violence. At least the law change has stopped it being legal to use a horse wip or a 4 by 2 and I suppose that is a start for those that think smacking is closely related to kissing.

[Scottie841]

At least the law change has stopped it being legal to use a horse wip or a 4 by 2

It has never been legal to his anyone with a 4 by 2 or horse wip.

You should go and read some law books and find out what the law actualy was. I dont think any judge would say that hitting a child with a bit of 4 by 2 is using "reasionable force"

[twinkles]

scottie there have been cases where parents have used a 2x4 and a horse whip, and then claimed 'reasonable force' and got away with it. Which exactly why the law change was needed.

[Scottie841]

scottie there have been cases where parents have used a 2x4 and a horse whip, and then claimed 'reasonable force' and got away with it. Which exactly why the law change was needed.

No the law needed to be defined.

If there was a definition of "reasionable force" and harsher penaltys for people that do "smash their kids with a wepon"

Everyone that I have spoken to that wants the law removed is not saying we should have the right to strap our kids to a power poll and hit them with a wip or beat them with a stick. They are saying that you should be alloud to smack their child with an open hand (and not have a lasting mark)

Green MP Sue Bradford last night insisted that her private member's bill unveiled yesterday would protect children and would not see police invading people's homes to arrest a parent who lightly smacked a child.

Even Sue Bradford her self supports a smack but everyone seems to have forgoten that