whetu Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 In my tank I have three amazon sword plants. One is rather large (more than 30cm across & 30cm tall) the other two are more like 20cm each. They are all probably a year old. The problem is, they are all showing signs of malnutrition: brown tips on leavesleaves thinning in some places and getting holes in themleaves of the smaller two plants are kind of wavy, instead of smooth & wide like the larger plant. A couple of months ago I put JBL balls under the substrate at the base of the plants to try to feed them, but it doesn't seem to have made any difference. I was also using Nutrafin Plant Gro* liquid fert but again it didn't seem to help the plants - and each time I used it I ended up with green, cloudy water so I stopped using it. :evil: What do I need to feed my swords on to make them happy & healthy? The substrate in the tank is just pebbles - no added nutrients apart from the JBL balls. The other plants in the tank are java fern and ambulia (the java ferns have recently started getting tiny holes in the leaves too). I have 110 watts of lighting (3 x Phillips "cool daylight" tubes). I don't add CO2 to the tank (I have all the stuff for DIY CO2 but quite frankly haven't been bothered with it for years!) *Plant Gro contains nitrogen, boron, copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum & zinc. Any help or advice much appreciated! :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 sorry don;t know too much about tropical plants, but with terrestrial plants overfeeding can be as bad as underfeeding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwiplymouth Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 As Stated above you may be over caring for them. Mine thrive on neglect and low light with a sprinkle of pmdd about once a month if i remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetu Posted July 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 I take your point about overdoing it, but I certainly don't think they're getting too much nutrient. When they first started showing signs of malnutrition they were just planted in plain gravel with no added ferts at all. Then there was no change when I added the JBL balls. Hmmm... the JBL balls are described on the box as "clay balls, loaded with nutrients" but there is no analysis to tell me what nutrients they have, or in what concentrations. The Plant Gro liquid fert has a whole lot of ingredients listed, but notably includes no potassium. I wonder how I can work out which trace elements are missing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwiplymouth Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Have you tried Flourish exel? Perhaps it needs a co2 boost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 lack of iron? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-town... Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 undergravel heating is also excellent for sword and crypt growth i hae 2 units for sale if your interested Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsonMassif Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Holes in leaves may be lack of Potassium. Browning may be lack of calcium.... Alanmin will know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetu Posted July 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Have you tried Flourish exel? Perhaps it needs a co2 boost I was using flourish Excel for a while (trying to get rid of BBA) and I have some left so I could use it again. But I think my sword's symptoms are a result of missing trace elements... so with low light and low nutrient I think it would probably be a waste to add carbon. Maybe someone can correct me if my reasoning is flawed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetu Posted July 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 lack of iron? The Nutrafin Plant Gro says "Iron Enriched" on the label, but when I used the recommended dose I only got green water algae blooms :evil: and saw no improvement in the swords. I wonder how long I would need to use it for, to see a difference in the swords? From memory I think I used it every couple of days for a week or two, stopped when the green water became too much, then after I cleared up the green water I tried again with the same result. Then a few weeks later I tried it at half the recommended dose and got another bloom and gave up. I don't have any carbon in my filter, so I would have thought that the iron would have hung around long enough to have made a difference to the swords if that was what they were looking for. Whaddaya reckon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetu Posted July 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 undergravel heating is also excellent for sword and crypt growth i hae 2 units for sale if your interested LOL nice try! :lol: Next time I ake my tank apart and re-do it from scratch I would love to install all those lovely high-tech gadgets! When I win lotto and get a huge tank with all the bells and whistles I will be sure to let you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 lack of iron? sorry that was a very half hearted post. :lol: when you do a gravel vac do you siphon the gravel? swords like nitrogen and phosphorus. EDIT _ I mean Potassium not Phosphorous :oops: plants will not die without CO2 injection in theory; the CO2 injection just makes the plants grow faster and better. try a DIY co2 setup for a while, the flourish may be a good idea too. have you tried pmdd? PS- the green on your avatar is my favourite shade of green - matches m&m green and Lamborghini green perfectly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetu Posted July 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Holes in leaves may be lack of Potassium. Browning may be lack of calcium.... Alanmin will know. Ooooh interesting! Potassium and calcium are both not mentioned on the Plant Gro label so I wonder if one of them is the missing link! *Waits impatiently for Alanmin to show up* :bounce: :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetu Posted July 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 sorry that was a very half hearted post. :lol: when you do a gravel vac do you siphon the gravel? swords like nitrogen and phosphorus. EDIT _ I mean Potassium not Phosphorous :oops: plants will not die without CO2 injection in theory; the CO2 injection just makes the plants grow faster and better. try a DIY co2 setup for a while, the flourish may be a good idea too. have you tried pmdd? PS- the green on your avatar is my favourite shade of green - matches m&m green and Lamborghini green perfectly Hmmm.. All food for thought! I do a gravel vac maybe every 3 - 4 weeks when I start to see a bit of gunk building up on the surface. When I do vacuum the gravel I just do the front part of the tank that has no plants. I should do a nitrate test and see if there's enough nitrogen in there. And there's that Potassium clue again. (Do aquatic plants need phosphorus? The N-P-K ferts for terrestrial plants would make me think they should...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 yes they do, but so does alage. then again, my planted tank had alarmingly high levels of phosphates and no algae at all. tank got afternoon-evening sun and great lighting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetu Posted July 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 yes they do, but so does alage. then again, my planted tank had alarmingly high levels of phosphates and no algae at all. tank got afternoon-evening sun and great lighting. And phosphates are usually present in fish food, right? So there should be enough being delivered by the food that I shouldn't have to add it as a fert? Or maybe a pinch of food a couple of times a day doesn't deliver enough? :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 And phosphates are usually present in fish food, right? yes they are So there should be enough being delivered by the food that I shouldn't have to add it as a fert? Or maybe a pinch of food a couple of times a day doesn't deliver enough? :-? that i do not know unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 It is not always easy to pick what the problem is because many of the signs you describe can be caused by more than one deficiency. There is a good article on the plant geek site under forum, plant resources and the sticky on nutrient deficiency. bio balls provide a mixture of micronutrients and the macronutrients should come from the fish food and waste. People often say that swords do best in soft acid water but many prefer a bit of calcium. They feed mainly through the roots. Good light helps as well. Swords usully thrive on the mulm in the tank that we generally try to remove.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetu Posted July 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 It is not always easy to pick what the problem is because many of the signs you describe can be caused by more than one deficiency. There is a good article on the plant geek site under forum, plant resources and the sticky on nutrient deficiency. bio balls provide a mixture of micronutrients and the macronutrients should come from the fish food and waste. People often say that swords do best in soft acid water but many prefer a bit of calcium. They feed mainly through the roots. Good light helps as well. Swords usully thrive on the mulm in the tank that we generally try to remove.. Thanks, Alan. I will look at the plant geek article and see if it sheds any light on the matter. Maybe I should also feed my fish more and stop doing gravel vacs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetu Posted July 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 Very useful articles on the Plant Geek site. Thanks for referring me there, Alan. Here's the link for anyone else interested: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm After looking at the chart I'm pretty sure the likely culprits are potassium and/or calcium. The symptoms fit with what I'm seeing in my swords, and neither of them is mentioned as being present in the Plant Gro liquid fert I'm using (and as I said, there is no analysis on the JBL clay balls... bit of a shame really and a bit of an oversight if they want serious plant geeks to use them!) Thanks to everyone who made suggestions. Looks like you were on the right track. Ok so what do I do about it? What would happen if I buried a bit of egg shell under the substrate, next to the roots of each of the sword plants? (I would clean the shell up first of course to make sure there was no egg that would rot and pollute the tank). How about potassium? Give the fish bananas for breakfast? :lol: More realistically, does anyone have some PMDD for sale? (There is none on TradeMe at the moment.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 ask hans if he has some PMDD. only one that sells it AFAIK. I am unsure if egg shell would work, as they don't break down easily. maybe a bit of a calcium block will be better (or even better some bird grit under the root). then again egg may be fine, ive never had to use it though so can't say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 A guy down here who is pretty good with plants often uses a gravel mix containing a little shell when growing swords Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcs Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 Im having similar problems with my two juvenile swords. Same with all my plants in my planted tank - my java fern has brown tips on the leaves, and my stargrass is growing really fast (almost at the top of my tall tank now) but the bottoms are all brown. I have twin tubes running 12hrs. Correctly dosing flourish and excel. Everything is all fine. I dont geddit. However in my keyholes tank, its a tiny single tube, only on for a few mins a day, no fertilisers etc.. and my vals and java ferns are the healthiest plants Ive ever owned! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 Stargrass needs to be kept short or it goes black on the bottom due to lack of light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zev Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 I found the best way to keep stargrass was when it got near the top of the tank I would pull it out, or chop it off at gravel level, cut the stems in half and replant the tops by laying the stems on the gravel and sitting a rock on the bottom of the stems, then it looks good all of the time. If you just prune it it looks horrid for a while, then it just branches out where you chopped it and looks top heavy and the bottoms go black from lack of light as Alanmin says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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