Native lizards

[museeumchick]

http://www.doc.govt.nz/templates/page.aspx?id=73561

any thoughts? or translations? (what does this actually mean?)

[livingart]

means if submissions aren't made to the contrary then they will be phasing out

the keeping of native lizards in private hands

[museeumchick]

has been in the talking over stages forever, but i geuss i hoped they would never get around to it.

so for now it means the list of 'freely' allowed lizards has shrunk dramatically? thats what I understand.

must consider how one goes about submitting to the contrary methinks. pondering.

[broms2]

from what I have read, it seems that they are actually phasing out the permit system but anyone will be able to keep captive bred schedule 3 species.

Most of the species I have ever wanted are on schedule 3 so it would in fact save me money.

just means that endangered species are only in Doc hands which is a bit scary.

So I may never get that Tuatara I allways wanted!!

am I reading it right?

[Dougstark]

It means if we are not happy with what they have sggested then we have got till the 31st of January to voice our own alternative suggestions. I am guessing that the Grandfather clause means if you already legally have certain birds and lizards you will be able to continue owning them. Personally if you had the more endangered species I would think it would be a good idea to be in a breeding programe if they dont make it too hard to get involved in one. I dont know if they will ever let you keep tuatara but if you do prove successful in breeding programes then they may permit you to take on other species.

[museeumchick]

I have some friends with allsorts of natives including both category 3 and non category 3 animals and have worked in partnership with DOC programmes in the past, but more recently the officer they worked with changed and there were some unfortunate incidents with the care of their animals when in DOC care

these people are very experienced in keeping these animals, and are happy to contribute to long term conservation efforts but they havent been treated very well by the experts and there is some loss of confidence.

I would like to think that 'owners' of native animals would be happy to help with conservation programmes, but the system still allows too many mistakes which doesnt leave alot of good faith for 'owners'

its all a bit sad really

i would think anyone who is successfully keeping non cat 3 species should be allowed to continue doing so regardless of whether there is a programme developed for them to work within. What happens if there isnt a programme at the mo = cant breed them = loss of potential breeding stock for future programmes?

goodness that was more long winded than intended :oops:

just some thoughts

[livingart]

there were some unfortunate incidents with the care of their animals when in DOC care

these people are very experienced in keeping these animals, and are happy to contribute to long term conservation efforts but they havent been treated very well by the experts and there is some loss of confidence.

seems to be a very common tale

[museeumchick]

pretty unfortunate really, some of the so called experts seem to have alot to learn from keepers with more practical experience.

[livingart]

a layman with passion saved the black robin

[davidb]

not exactly, he did work for the wildlife service (now DoC)

[livingart]

what qualifications did he hold

and how long did it take before he was listened to

[repto]

you are talking about Don Merton?I thought he worked for DOC as in his career?

[livingart]

i believe it was originally wildlife service

will have to dig out my old books

the old books are good

found this

Don Merton, originally from Gisborne, has had a life-long interest in wildlife, and particularly in bird

conservation. On leaving school Don Merton started work with the New Zealand Wildlife Service, then a part of the

Department of Internal Affairs and now the Department of Conservation.also was with forest and bird at about 9 years old

[rockwork]

if DOC have there way no one will be allowed any type of rep or brid.

look wot they are doing to the tar down south they want to kill them all cos of the mtcook flower i dont no anyone that payed 50g to look at a flower but i do no the americians pay that to hunt the tar

And it is the only herd outside the hymilays

[scott16]

hey don mertons my dads uncle

[Navarre]

Wonder what this means for those who keep exotics?

Navarre

[museeumchick]

look wot they are doing to the tar down south they want to kill them all cos of the mtcook flower i dont no anyone that payed 50g to look at a flower but i do no the americians pay that to hunt the tar

And it is the only herd outside the hymilays

Getting a little on a tangent here but Tar are an interesting story, we might have the only insurance population here under our noses (theyre quite endangered in their homeland).

Theres a great short film on them called 'shooting to learn' about a guy who starts out hunting them but ends up studying them.

then theres whether theya are even having a significant effect on the alpine flora, which to the best of my knowledge is still in the research stages.

Facinating stuff

[Stella]

look wot they are doing to the tar down south they want to kill them all cos of the mtcook flower i dont no anyone that payed 50g to look at a flower but i do no the americians pay that to hunt the tar

Oh yes, that's right, exotic species are of course so much more important than our own unique native flora and fauna! And money is much, much more important than anything else in the world.

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

(I have seen the film, very interesting issues there. But we don't have to save one exotic at the loss of a native, it is possible to achieve both.)

[alanmin4304]

Even the Americans are admitting it is time for a change.

[Navarre]

Well Stella thats the problem that I have with a lets take it back to pre european mentality. In NZ there WERE native grazers. Thats why so many of our plants change foliage after they get to a certain height. Or so some theories suggest.

I dont think that one specie should be excluded to preserve another however. Take Thar or Tahr depending on your accent. They are endangered in their native land, Just like the Dama Walleby or the Hammerhead. Now I am on a soap box here. There are VERY importanat natives and these should be preserved. No Questions asked. But there are introduced species here that are genetically diverse and in some cases just as unique and rare and the should be managed as well. The fact that some have a commercial value is a by product of that diverstity.

Lets take the above example. Some Yank wants to pay 50g for a Tahr well so be it. Dont forget all the other expnses they contribute like food and fuel and infrastructure. What upsets me is that unlike other places we are not taxing that income and resourcing proper animal MANAGEMENT. Both Exotic and Native. Not just eradication. Long live a biophosphate poison that creates slient bush after all. I mean what is a few sterile lizards and flightless birds to get rid of a nasty old possum that caught TB of one of our cows anyway.

I am a hunter, and I am a nature lover. Some of the hardest working conservationalists I know fit into those labels. I manage my enviroment and I give back from where I take. Its not all about bloodsport. Its about balance. That is not what we have here. and it is not what you were talking about either.

We would be better off spending money to police rodents, rodent killers (lol) and rabbits and possums than we would the ruminant version of a large extinct bird.

Very Disapointing.

[museeumchick]

Some interesting thoughts all round

Stella, what I was trying to say is there is still no evidence that we cant keep our native flora and the tar - but sadly that idea is often overlooked by opposing parties. sigh, we get rather stuck in our ideas somedays and its difficult to change your mind (I know coz i guilty of it).

Tar are a special species in their own right and in terms of preserving biodiversity on a global level they should be protected, whether they should be protected at the expence of NZ species is another matter (it all depends where our longterm conservation priorities lie).

But tar as a replacement of Moa? well i dont think i believe that either, thar and deer might have similar browsing patterns to Moa but this is still jsut an idea and looking at extant birds suggests their selectivity for browsing material may have been rather different.

But its still up in the air really, the usual -> need more information

Use of poisons and comtrol of mammalian predators is another issue (there have been a few threads on this already).

[Navarre]

I am sorry for the rant....and for the target. It was not an attack Stella.

I just can not beleave the short sightedness of some of our conservation policy. And some of the thinking behind it.

I disagree just as much with putting chemicals from run off into our streams as I do with the whole "lets make money from it". But I do see a place for both.

I know Stella has more experience than most with some of our rare native fish. But one walk thru our forests will tell you something is not right with our current policies either.

As I said above Balance. As alanmin suggest else where now is the time for change.

This proposal re herpts and birds seems at a first reading to be a double edged sword. The fact that several specie are not on the current permit list (both exotic and native) is interesting. Also that some specie that are on the proposed new list are not that common...just commonly kept, is also interesting especially when you bring in Hybrids and the fact that some herpts in NZ are very hard to tell apart from the dorsum (the suggested standard of ID) especially when there are colour morphs and you then need to include eye colour and shape and also palete colour.

Will need more time to look at this, as another concern is timeframe for grandparenting and for making submissions.

Hope that this brings this thread back on track and I will save my Rants for those else where.

Navarre

[matt_man]

has anyone made a submisson....? times running out