Military Run Boot Camps In NZ

[Zev]

It certainly makes sense to me, why shouldanyone be able to drop out of school and live a useless existence at the taxpayers expense?

It seems too simplistic to me, sounds good on paper, but what worries me is they are going to want money, and if they can't get it one way, they are going to be looking at getting it from somewhere else, possibly by stealing it or property to sell, or become 'employed' by some not so above board 'organisations'.

[David R]

Yes that is true, so what do you do, say 'yeah fine drop out of school and the nanny state will look after you'? Don't even get me started on the need for harsher penalties for criminals, especially repeat offenders....

[wasp]

but what worries me is they are going to want money, and if they can't get it one way, they are going to be looking at getting it from somewhere else, possibly by stealing it or property to sell, or become 'employed' by some not so above board 'organisations'.

I've heard that argument used a lot, often by some crim trying to justify his behaviour - "I HAD to beat that old guy and steal his money cos I got a family to feed".

But in the great depression in the 1930's, there was a WAY lower per capita crime rate than what we have now. There was massive unemployment and no social welfare for most. But they were staunch back then, they could handle themselves, and consideration for others was considered a virtue.

When I was a young guy in Gisborne, living at what could be described as the lower end of the socio economic scale, I never committed any crimes but it used to make me sick listening to people who were getting more than me, dribble on about how they HAD to rob, burg, and whatever else, cos they had no money. I just used to think, "yeah right".

We have a social welfare system that, not always, but most of the time, provides people with enough money. But when we see poverty, it is usually mental poverty. IE the parents / caregivers have a tobacco, alchohol, drug, gambling or whatever issue, or just no clue about budgeting. Therefore, somebody else goes hungry.

[Zev]

Another thing that bugs me is the Secondary tax rate... Talk about stomping on a person who wants to get ahead in life... In some cases they may be better off not doing the second job?

[Zev]

Bt in the great depression in the 1930's, there was a WAY lower per capita crime rate than what we have now. There was massive unemployment and no social welfare for most. But they were staunch back then, they could handle themselves, and consideration for others was considered a virtue.

Ahhh... lets blame it on consumerism!

I bet during the depression that the kids managed to occupy themselves with simple toys or work - they wouldn't be screaming out for video games, branded clothing and the latest sugar laden snack thingeys, and tell you where to go when you told them to get off their butts and go tidy up. Oh, and they would walk everywhere!

[wasp]

I think you are exactly right, hit the nail on the head.

[VinsonMassif]

I bet during the depression that the kids managed to occupy themselves with simple toys or work. Oh, and they would walk everywhere!

Back in the good old days where kids had an imagination, and respect for adults.

[penguinleo]

Thanks for the ideas guys

[ajbroome]

OK.

I think everyone who has posted a comment on this should go back and read the whole thread. There're some pretty harsh things being said and I'm not sure the people saying them would want to have grown up in a society where those ideals were the norm.

I'm sure if you (yes you!) did the maths you'd find that being on some sort of government sponsored welfare does not equal crime. Some people are crap, a whole bunch aren't. Deal with it and don't try to put people in boxes based on some imagined socieo-economic trivia.

For the record, I believe in the government investing money in education and health and that that'll sort out a whole lot of people who beleive they're disadvantaged for whatever reason. I guess that means I'm to be considered 'liberal' when looking at the current right-thinking (oh, the market will sort it out -- for others) point of view.

I'm constantly annoyed by people who grew up under a left minded ideal but now have some money and want to exclude others. It's just rude.

Yes, I am a member of a union.

Andrew.

[alanmin4304]

Out of curiosity, what union are you a member of---The employers Federation or The Round Table?

[alanmin4304]

Once is enough

[camnbron]

Yes, I am a member of a union.

Andrew.

Congratulations, I am too. But, what does this have to do with the topic??

The discussion is about this post:

Well, I'm doing a bit of interschool debating and I was wondering if some people had any ideas on this.

The moot is: "This house supports military boot camps for young offenders aged between 14 and 17."

So what do you think of this? All opinions and ideas will be much appreciated.

Generally IMO there has been a noticable change in teenagers over time, I left the 7th form in 1996 and could see i the years below me big attitudes, disrespectful behaviour and lazyness. Sure there are still nice teenagers, however the group that I speak over is growing in representation.

Why are they like that? More than likely a wide range of of different reasons.

Will boot camps help? Hopefully. Like has been said, removing the person from their influences (Drugs, family, friends, gangs, etc,.) and replacing them with role models, discipline, good food, direction and attention will have a positive outcome.

On a slightly different point.

When I got to 6th and 7th form, like all other schools, the people who didn't want to be at school had left (because they were old enough to leave). I have no doubt that this had a positive effect for me and my classmates as our teachers could focus on the people who wanted to learn. What will happen if the people couldn't leave until 18? IMO the people who want to be there will be dragged down.

Something needs to happen to ensure the disruptive group is reduced in numbers, if boot camps work, why not.

[alanmin4304]

The problem that I see is that the kids that are off the rails need to develop self respect and self discipline. You cannot show respect to others if you have no respect for yourself. Something like Outward Bound would probably be more appropriate. My concern is that the army has an ingrained culture of regular and excessive drinking and has one of the highest incidences of spousal abuse of any occupation and to me that does not indicate any level of self discipline or self respect. Mindless obedience has nothing to do with self respect and self discipline. Although completely irrelevant I spent most of my working life as a union delegate.

[HaNs]

I watched a program at 1.30(or was it 12.30) am this morning on a boot camp run in nz.

Was called redemption hill.

Was quite crap as a tv prog IMO

They just gave the kids skills in how to deal with their "problems"

Hard to say if it worked or not :-?

Maybe worth a watch?

[wasp]

Yes that is the difficult part. People going through these programs and being inspired to change their ways. But when they get out, back to the same old environment, friends and problems etc, and their newfound keenness gradually gets eroded & in a few months it's back to square one. And I know this because in the past i have employed people who went through one of these programs. I did my best to help but when you lived in a crap environment for years, then get dropped back into it old habits are hard to lose. The program, camp, or whatever is 1/2 the battle, the aftercare is the other 1/2.

I'm sure if you (yes you!) did the maths you'd find that being on some sort of government sponsored welfare does not equal crime.

Andrew.

Welfare equals crime? Where did somebody say that?

[VinsonMassif]

Welfare equals crime? Where did somebody say that?

I thought it was more of an opinionated thread because of the original post wanting ideas for a debate.

I don't think any of us are politicians, or policy makers using this forum as a basis for change as this is against the guidelines.

[wasp]

I don't think any of us are politicians, or policy makers using this forum as a basis for change as this is against the guidelines.

Pity though, some of those ideas might have worked! :lol:

I don't think what's being done under our current leadership is working we seem to be on a slippery slope downhill. Don't really agree with the bootcamp idea unless it's done right, which is hard. But if it came in maybe it couldn't be worse than what's being done now.

[camnbron]

Exactly Wasp, I agree.

We have a slippery slope scenario. Boot camp may or may not be the best medicine to cure the illness we have in our society, but something has to be done. Youth crime has been in the headlines on a regular basis for a while now. Not minor crime but murder, attempted murder, assult with deadly weapons, assault, careless use of vehicle, shooting at policemen, exceeding 100km/hr in tauranga carchase, stealing guns, stabbing corner dairy worker do I need to go on?

Very slippery slope.

Yes there are good teenagers too, but the rot is setting in.

[alanmin4304]

None of the teenagers around today are as good as we were when we were teenagers and the students that are burning couches, throwing bottles at the police and rioting in Dunedin will be the respectable lawyers that will defend them in the future. I think I heard my Grandfather say that. If only kids didn't copy adults maybe the world would be a better place.

[livingart]

maybe if adults set a better example the world would be a better place.

[alanmin4304]

My point

[wasp]

How did the debate go?

[Stella]

Try reading some of the Greek comedies. They are an absolute hoot but they also show just how nothing ever changes. The young people were complaining that the old people were so boring and got in the way of them doing anything. The old people complain that the youths have no respect any more etc etc etc. Same old story.

Read the medieval stories, same thing all over again.

At the moment the media has a fixation on youth crime. A while back it was all about kids getting bitten by dogs, when was the last time you saw an item on a kid being bitten by a dog? Do you really think suddenly kids stopped going near strange dogs?

When I was 13 the idea of making kids stay in school til 18 was raised again. I wrote a letter to the prime minister (yeah yeah, precocious) saying how it would get in the way of the kids who really wanted to be there. It was great when I was 17, most of the trouble-makers had left.

I don't believe boot camps are the answer. Totally fake environment and the army is not set up for that sort of thing. They learn how to work the system while they are there, little more. As someone said, where is the aftercare?

Put more money into early intervention, primary schools, remedial reading, alternative-to-mainstream-schooling programs, apprenticeships, things like that struggling but highly successful What's Up helpline. It is usually so obvious who is heading off the rails at a very young age. If they feel 'stupid' at school they are not going to try, they are going to disrupt, wag, drop out.

I saw real troublemakers become top students in just one class where a new (maths) idea was taught and they understood it. Suddenly their hands were up to answer every question! They felt good. Next class it was back to disruption because they didn't get it.

[wasp]

Well said Stella, good points.

The other thing about raising the school leaving age is it is totally pointless. We are told it's to keep wayward youths off the street & doing something, but most of them been wagging for years already so changing the law to 18 just shows the policy makers are out of touch with reality.