penguinleo Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Well, I'm doing a bit of interschool debating and I was wondering if some people had any ideas on this. The moot is: "This house supports military boot camps for young offenders aged between 14 and 17." So what do you think of this? All opinions and ideas will be much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snookie Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 good idea ,discipline , respect for self and others , cleanliness , short sharp shock , only come the once Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Great I also belive that the long term unempolyed would benifit from it as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Didn't do me any good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faran Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 On this same topic, can someone please direct me on where to find a listing of "Youth Boot Camps" in NZ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgeous Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 On this same topic, can someone please direct me on where to find a listing of "Youth Boot Camps" in NZ? I thought it was one of the things John Key was planning on doing if he wins the election. i.e. There are none in New Zealand now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Tame Iti was running one wasn't he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsonMassif Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Tame Iti was running one wasn't he? Wasn't it more of a "run-around-playing-dress-up-with-guns-while-smoking-up" kind of affair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Alan did you turn out OK... had a job was a person that considered others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zev Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Tame Iti was running one wasn't he? Lol Here's one for ya Blue http://www.army.mil.nz/culture-and-hist ... aining.htm And here is the National Party propaganda on 'Fresh Start' http://www.national.org.nz/Article.aspx?ArticleID=11772 Scroll down to the bottom to avoid all the blah... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 I think this idea is a load of Swearing Removed and I am sure the army would rather not have a heap of recruits that are completely off the rails (although they would be cheap canon fodder) The only discipline that is worthwhile is self discipline and you don't learn that in the army. You sh-- when I say sh-- is not worthwhile discipline. It taught me to go awol nearly every night and sneak back to camp in the wee hours stewed as. It is the usual political bull you get around near elections: Tax cuts, more cops, harder on crooks, teach the hoons discipline and play the race card if you can get away with it. Don't vote it only encourages them. Would you buy a second hand car from a politician? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Fantastic idea to have a boot camp. Might not help all but will help many with discipline and set some standards. Got nothing to loose to do it as everything else has not worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 I think they might help a few off-the-rails youths, but at the end of the day you can't regulate against stupid people. The best solution would be to stop paying them to reproduce and get tough [really tough] on repeat offenders. There are far too many people on a taxpayer funded roundabout of welfare and prison, and the problems we are seeing today are the first generation raised in that lifestyle. Just imagine what it will be like in 2-3 generations time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Some people seem to forget that the army is there with the sole purpose of training people to become professional killers. Do we realy want a whole heap of professionally trained off the rails killers in this country. Why don't we sign them up with one of the violent gangs around the place, at least the training wouldn't be at the taxpayers expense and the result would be the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faran Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 I think the main point of this argument is flawed. Many of you are talking about proper military boot camp with weapons training and beatings, like what I went through in Marine Boot Camp when I was 18. It taught me loads of discipline but that's not the point. The Youth Offender Boot Camp has no weapons training for obvious reasons. It trains kids (with plenty of exercise) survival skills and puts them in a field environment for a period of time where every action means comfort or discomfort. This teaches them that their actions really do make a difference in their lives and survival. With a few weeks of this and getting away from the modern world of internet, cell phones, drugs and their friends which are influencing them, most youths come back with a totally different perspective on right and wrong. Better relationships with parents and authoritative figures, and a camaraderie with fellow boot camp recruits which is usually stronger than even a gang brotherhood. David R - you talk about the first generation of welfare and prisons. In my neighbourhood we have many families with three generations going through the institutional cycle. This is far from the first gen, mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zev Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 So, would this make it better, or worse? Key announced that under a National Government, youth who left school at 16 or 17 and did not enter another registered education provider or find work would be unable to receive any form of benefit. retrieved from: http://anarchia.wordpress.com/2008/01/3 ... -of-youth/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 It certainly makes sense to me, why shouldanyone be able to drop out of school and live a useless existence at the taxpayers expense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Zev, I have friends who have given up teaching because of the number of kids who don't want to learn and are at school, imagine how many more would leave if the classes were full of kids who didn't want to be there but had to. I think they are better off out of school if they don't want to learn. That way they will see how good life is with no skills and might become more interested in education later on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 I agree Alan, but what Key is saying is that they're allowed to leave, but they must support themselves and not go straight on the dole because they're too lazy to get a job, or not willing to upskill themselves to make them more employable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsonMassif Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Yes, but with the unemployment rate being so low, how many kids are we actually talking about? Not that many on benefits I would imagine. WINZ doesn't hand out benefits to under 18y/o lightly. I agree with Alan's comments that self-discipline cannot be forced. How effective will a boot-camp be to teenagers who have already fallen off the rails for whatever reason? Whether it is from an abusive home, a drug environment, a broken home, how will a military style boot-camp resolve the cause that left these kids this way? IMO parents are more to blame (although not entirely) for causing/allowing/enabling kids to grow up into broken teenagers. But I don't think any government lobbying or policy making will make any significant difference to this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 This episode of Beyond the Darklands touched on this and might be worth viewing if you can track down a copy: http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/1524007 It basically claimed that they work as a last resort for this kind of guy, for the same reasons gangs do. I'm not sure it is that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Some people seem to forget that the army is there with the sole purpose of training people to become professional killers. Do we realy want a whole heap of professionally trained off the rails killers in this country. Why don't we sign them up with one of the violent gangs around the place, at least the training wouldn't be at the taxpayers expense and the result would be the same. Ross Kemp has been doing a series on gangs around the world that touched on this very thing - some US gangs send their recruits into the army to learn weapons and assault tactics. Had some kind of interesting footage of gangbangers using military tactics against the police too. I'm not sure giving people with no self control the ability to kill efficiently is such a flash idea, although if you need someone to stand between you and a piece of shrapnel then I think they'd be ideal. I think tonights edition is on a US gang too - might be worth a look? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Hey - it looks like great fun! http://www.army.mil.nz/culture-and-hist ... aining.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 It can be interesting watching the news sometimes about countries where martial arts are more part of the culture. When demonstrators and the police have a conflict it is a bit like an old kung fu movie. It wouldn't be anywhere as much fun if they just stood there and shot each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 The best solution would be to stop paying them to reproduce. This, of course, is the best idea in the thread so far. A bit of compulsary sterilization would not go amiss either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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