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reef

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  1. reef

    Auto top-up?

    how does the co2 recirculate in the reactor? looks like water goes in then out.
  2. reef

    cost of marine

    di does not waste water. whats another $200 to the budget,
  3. reef

    cost of marine

    ira, why would you not need RODI for tank water?? I am on tank water and could not do without DI. The organics load would be very high with all the decaying matter, dead birds, bacteria etc. Do some tests and tell me how high your phostphates are in your tank water.
  4. reef

    cost of marine

    breakaway, have to totally agree with you.
  5. reef

    Auto top-up?

    pies , i think you get mixed up, i did not make my skimmer , it was custom made for me. How can i loose salt if i do water changes, does this not balance out .
  6. reef

    Why use both

    This should have been posted in the advanced section. Did not expect you to understand.
  7. reef

    cost of marine

    yep, thats about it
  8. reef

    Auto top-up?

    Pies. I use a kaltwasser stirrer and a co2 reactor. However my co2 reactor only runs 2-3 hrs a day. I only use kaltwasser as we are on tank water, so the ph is 6.80, by adding a kaltwasser stirrer it raises the ph of the water coming out of our water tank. I have a 200-litre bin and don’t go directly to my mains water as we are on tank water and our water pump would be going on and off which is not very good for it. There are many ways to skin a cat, the amateurish Diy way and the professional way, which I prefer As for the float switch hammering the Ro unit.. I will check it out ?? As for the article, well it was just discussing the pros and cons. It makes sense, If you calcium reactor keeps your calcium at 420ppm, then you add kaltwasser, won’t the calcium fall out of the tank as you can only add so much calcium to a aquarium. I think so??
  9. reef

    Auto top-up?

    i still think your idea is ok, however leave out the dosing pump and the extra sump. Just top up directly from the mains supply using aquamedic or Tunze units. This thread sure opened a can of worms. but at least we know that Randy is a plumber and keeps goldfish and everyone has a fantastic reef tank.
  10. reef

    Auto top-up?

    I think Randy is a plumber and keeps goldfish
  11. reef

    Auto top-up?

    chimera, I still think that the system that you are setting up is unnecessary as it just adds more items which could go wrong. Because you have a auto top up does not mean that it is going to turn on and off every second, Normally the auto top up will top the water to a certain level past the sensor, and then the water will take some time to evaporate. Before it fills it up again. So the rodi will not be on all the time. I guess you are only topping up about 5 Litres a day. If you want to add kaltwasser, then just add a kaltwasser mixer at the end of the rodi which will drip the water into your sump. Best to keep these systems simply as possible. I am not sure if you can add a solenoid valve after the rodi unit. Because if you close the outflow all the water will go down the waste pipe of the ro unit, as it has two outlets. Waste water outlet and a good water outlet.
  12. reef

    Auto top-up?

    chimera, would it not be better to do it as follows. tap- water from mains gate valve- reduce flow rate into rodi unit solenoid valve- turn water on/off rodi- filters water autotop up- controls solenoid valve sump why have a holding tank and a dosing pump, just adds up to extra costs.
  13. reef

    Auto top-up?

    Yes I agree there are people on reef central that have had problems, however most of these units have been DIY, so you cant compare this with a proper systems like tunze,aquamedis,iks, I can’t see any problem hooking the top up to the main water supply at all using proper top up units. The tunze for example has as optical sensor, if this fails it has a back up sensor so it will turn off the dosing pump or solinoid valve. also the tunze system stops dosing if it runs for longer than 20 mins continuously, So there are so many safety features compared to the DIY stuff. If you hook up the tunze unit to the mains you have to make sure that the water coming out from the mains is reduced to a drip or two a second, so as a safety feature if the tunze fails the water coming out of the mains will only drip out and you will fix the problem before it overflows your sump. If you use the top up from the mains then you wont need a dosing pump only a solinode valve. cost about $100 for a solinoid. The Tunze is certainly a unit I would recommend. I certainly would not be taking any changes on my tank so I generally stay away from DIY as I have too much to stock to lose.
  14. reef

    Auto top-up?

    Chimera, that could be in your case, However Lars Sabella knows what he is talking about and looking at his tank I tend to respect his opinion.
  15. reef

    Auto top-up?

    I think I would tend to believe (Dipl. Ing. (FH) Lars Sebralla). He has the big letters in front of his name.
  16. reef

    Why use both

    Here is a article i found about the pros v cons of using a calcium reactor and kaltwasser at the same time. K A l k w A s s e r - K A l k r e A k t o r - pros and cons on www.Lars Sebralla.de Dipl. Ing. (FH) Lars Sebralla The general function mechanisms and impacts of the lime water method and the lime reactor are explained, confronted and regarded from a chemical side, which is easily understandably stated. K A l k w A s s e r Kalkwasser sounds itself for the Meerwasseraquarianer very promisingly and should be to use so simple and economical. If one analyzes however the term "kalkwasser" more near, some surprising result. Of what does kalkwasser actually consist? One takes calcium hydroxide, gives it in osmose water, agitates several times and leaves the mixture untouched. After some time one gives the clear liquid to the sea water aquarium. Was that everything? Is it so simple? What actually happens and which is calcium hydroxide for a nonchemist? Questions over questions, which must be answered. Calcium hydroxide Calcium hydroxide is simplifies a substance made of calcium (approx.), oxygen (O) and hydrogen (H). The oxygen and the hydrogen are firmly connected and result in a hydroxide (OH). This OH is strongly basic (alkalinely) and has a pH value of 14. Two this OH are firmly connected with a calcium (approx.). The two as index one writes (2). Calcium hydroxide is thus: Ca(OH)2 If calcium hydroxide in water is given, a part of the connection goes "apart", it is solved. Made of calcium hydroxide then one calcium ion (approx. 2+)and two hydroxyl ions (2 OH become-). This looks as follows: Ca(OH)2 ® approx.2+ + 2 OH- What means this for the Aquarianer? "kalkwasser" Calcium hydroxide separates only badly in water. For this reason calcium hydroxide in the container always stays as white solid. In the clear solution over it are calcium ions, hydroxyl ions and naturally water. The pH value is with approx.. 12,45. This clear solution is now the "kalkwasser" thus: Approx.2+ + OH- in water Lime Where now is the lime in the kalkwasser? Lime is a connection of calcium (approx.), carbon © and oxygen (O). A carbon © is firmly connected with three oxygen (3 O) and results in thus CO3 , a carbonate. This carbonate increases the carbonate portion e.g. in the aquarium. A calcium (approx.) is now connected with a carbonate (CO3) and results in calcium carbonate or, like the vernacular says, lime. Thus is lime: CaCO3 Lime and "kalkwasser" Now is the question: "where is the lime in" the kalkwasser "?" yet doesn't answer, or nevertheless? The answer is not obvious, it is a lime in the kalkwasser. Lime develops after some time in the "kalkwasser". Only if carbon dioxide (CO2) from the air, at which surface of the "kalkwassers" arrives, this formally aspirated and forms then lime. This is not soluble in the "kalkwasser" and gives likewise a white sediment. For this reason "kalkwasser" should be located not openly, but keep in a lockable container, e.g. to a can. If the "kalkwasser" (the clear solution) is used up, new osmose water is given on the arrears. After a certain time the sediment in the container is exchanged and fresh calcium hydroxide is used, because ever more insoluble lime is present and ever fewer calcium hydroxides. Calcium hydroxide solution in the aquarium If the clear calcium hydroxide solution, i.e. calcium ions (approx.2+) and hydroxyl ions (OH-) to the sea water aquarium is given, a reaction takes place, it develops simplified representedfor calcium hydrogencarbonate(CaHCO 3), thus with the carbon dioxide loosened in the water(CO 2): Approx.2+ + 2 OH- + 2 CO2 ¯ Ca(HCO3)2 The calcium hydrogencarbonate is not stable and disintegrates into an calcium ion (approx.2+) and an hydrogencarbonate ion (HCO3-), thus: Ca(HCO3)2® approx.2+ + 2 HCO3- Since an alkaline pH value is present, reacts the hydrogencarbonate ion (HCO3-) with a hydroxyl ion (OH-). Now an carbonate ion (CO 32)and water develop, thus: HCO3- + OH- ® CO32+ H2O Now also the carbonate portion in the aquarium rises. The rise depends thus before all of the pH value and of the carbon dioxide portion in the aquarium water. Result "kalkwasser" The so-called "kalkwasser" does not consist only of calcium ions and hydroxyl ions and has with lime anything to do. Only if the clear calcium hydroxide solution is given to the aquarium develops at the end carbonate. An accurate controlling of the carbonate portion is hardly possible, since it depends before all of carbon dioxide content in the water. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K A l k r e A k t o r Here the Aquarianer thinks usually of very complex, complicated and above all very expensive devices. It is to take place here no comparison of products, but state only fundamental principles. If one analyzes however the term "lime reactor" more near, one experiences some surprising likewise. All the same whether built or bought, often one hears problems such as karbonathaerte (today: Saeurekapazitaet to pH 4,3) does not rise, too little calcium, pH value falls u.s.w. But actually the lime reactor is to function nevertheless according to a so simple principle. One gives carbonic acid to a container (reactor), filled with a substrate, and at the end comes a solution out with...? This is so not only too simply represented, but also still wrongly. Therefore step for step. Function mode A goal of the lime reactor is it to divide the substrate in its inside into the individual components to thus solve. These arrive then into the sea water aquarium. The lime reactor is filled with a substrate, which lime (CaCO3) must contain. Lime dissolves in sour solutions easily, while in alkaline solutions the lime is present as white solid. Since a sea water aquarium has mostly an easily alkaline pH value between 8,0 and 8,4, the substrate does not dissolve. For this reason the pH value must be brought in the reactor into a sour range (smaller 7). This can happen not in the aquarium but in the lime reactor is practiced. In order to lower the pH value in the reactor, carbon dioxide (CO 2)becomes as gas (and not carbonic acid!) admitted. The carbon dioxide (CO2) is loosened in the water (H2 O). Carbonic acid develops, thus: CO2 + H2O ®H2CO3 This reaction does not change the pH value yet. Carbonic acid is however very unstable and disintegrates simplified into an acid (H+) and into a hydrogencarbonate (HCO3-), thus: H2CO3® H+ + HCO3- Now, if the acid (H+) is present, the pH value in the reactor is lowered. If the pH value is low enough, the substrate dissolves slowly. The insoluble lime (CaCO3) is converted now simplified by the "acid" (H+) into soluble calcium hydrogencarbonate (Ca(HCO3)2). CaCO3 + H+ ® Ca(HCO3)2 The calcium hydrogencarbonate is not stable and disintegrates into an calcium ion (Ca2+) and an hydrogencarbonate ion (HCO3-), thus: Ca(HCO3)2® approx.2+ + 2 HCO3- Thus calcium ions (approx. 2+)and hydrogencarbonate ions (HCO 3-)arrive in the sea water aquarium. Since an alkaline is present pH value in the sea water aquarium, reacts the hydrogencarbonate ion (HCO3-) with a hydroxyl ion (OH-), which is in great quantities in the aquarium present. Now an carbonate ion (CO 32)and water (H 2O) develop, thus: HCO3- + OH- ® CO32+ H2O Now also the carbonate portion in the aquarium rises. Dissolution of the substrate In order to accelerate a dissolving, a high flow rate must be present in the reactor. In to broad reactors (diameter more largely 12 cm) very strong pumps must be used (more than 2,500 litres per hour), in order to receive a high flow rate. Also the use of fine substrates leads to a strong reduction of the flow rate in the lime reactor. The substrate has a larger surface for the acid attack, is however too small the current, collects themselves the CO2vesicles in the substrate and results in large CO2blisters. In these places hardly substrate can be dissolved. In some reactors even the substrate and a large gas bubble lift themselves become visible. Function & performance inspection of lime reactor Each lime reactor can be completely simply tested. Vibrate your lime reactor easily. Now if gas bubbles from the substrate should ascend, the flow rate is too small and the lime reactor does not work to 100%. In such cases the substrate should be exchanged against a rougher material, since hardly carbon dioxide can collect itself there. If no gas bubbles should ascend, you can determine the maximum achievement of the reactor as follows. Close the return of the lime reactor in the aquarium. That CO2entry is not changed. Now the pH value in the reactor always falls further and it dissolves ever more substrates. Thus the water with calcium ions (approx. 2+)and hydrogencarbonate ions (HCO 3-)enriches itself. The water in the reactor is clear. Suddenly this and the whole reactor change are white (looks like milk). If this should not happen, but gas bubbles in the substrate to settle, which become visible by easy vibrating, it must being proceeded like above described. Max. achievement of a lime reactor Why does the lime reactor color itself suddenly white? Because no fresh aquarium water can into the lime reactor influxes, return in the aquarium is closed, more lime in the water solved than possible is. This surplus falls suddenly in few seconds as white solid lime (CaCO3) out (supersaturation). Now the reactor is used to 100%. Now the return is opened in the aquarium and as soon as the reactor is again clear, can the calcium content, which is measured KH- and the pH value. Calcium values of over 1.500 mg/L and KH values over 60 are not rarity. By the variation of the return quantity into the aquarium and the carbon dioxide quantity (CO2) into the lime reactor now arbitrary KH is adjusted -, approx. and pH values. Ex.: Little CO2 and high return in the aquarium results in a small dissolution of the substrate (a little approx.2+ and KH). Much CO2 and little return results in a high resolution of the substrate (much approx.2+ and KH). Substrate for dissolution If one uses now a substrate, which consists of pure lime, then only calcium ions (approx.2+) and Hydogencarbonat ions (HCO3-) are led in the aquarium. E.g. if Korallenbruch is used, then pollutants are set free such as phosphate, aluminum and Kieslesaeure additionally and enrich themselves in the water. Here it is pointed out that often many more phosphates by dissolving Korallenbruch into the aquarium comes when one thinks. Analyses showed up to approx.. 1600 mg phosphate per kg of Korallenbruch to be set free. Further there can be the problem with some pressed lime substrates that fine particles can arrive into the aquarium and lead to a turbidity. Result lime reactor The lime reactor enriches the aquarium water with calcium ions (approx.2+) and Hydogencarbonat ions (HCO3-). The pH value is raised and stabilized by the addition of hydrogencarbonate. When using shell greeting still further trace elements are brought in. With a lime reactor arbitrary KH- and calcium values can be adjusted in the sea water aquarium without problems. In the natural sea water the KH lies with approx.. 8 and the calcium content with approx.. 400. KH values of 14-18 and calcium values of 500-800 mg/L, e.g. in a Steinkorallenaquarium can be realized and known also without problems large advantages to bring. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Problems with the employment of kalkwasser and lime reactor After the function and impacts are described, some general problems are addressed. pH problems with the lime reactor The output water of the lime reactor has a sour pH value (e.g. 6.2) and thus a surplus of acid (H+), otherwise would be the pH value not under 7. Now the conclusion lies close, if a water with e.g. pH 6.2 into the sea water aquarium, which has a pH of e.g. 8.1, drips, the pH value in the aquarium to sink can. Possible consequence: The water from the reactor must be raised in the pH, before it arrives in the aquarium. Possibilities are to be ventilated e.g. the water specially, before it arrives in the aquarium or the water by a protein skimer to send. In this way carbon dioxide is eliminated. pH rise in the output water of the lime reactor? What happens during a pH rise with the return water from the lime reactor? The water took up the maximum quantity of calcium ions (approx. 2+)andHydogencarbonat ions (HCO 3 -)atthe withdrawal pH value, if the reactor is optimally adjusted. Now the pH value is increased. As describes already further above, lime separates in the sour water on and in the alkaline lime precipitates as white solid. If the pH value of the return water of the lime reactor is increased, thus less lime can be loosened and thus the surplus precipitates as white solid. It can be determined e.g. at a white precipitation in the container, where the water is ventilated or in the foam pot of the protein skimer is snow-white arrears. Which happens however, if the return water drips in the sea water aquarium (does not flow!), which a pH of e.g. 8.1 has? Here also does lime precipitate? The return should always take place into the current. By the immediate distribution drop in many litres aquarium water is prevented failing, there now the content of calcium ions (approx.2+) and Hydogencarbonat ions (HCO3-) in the whole aquarium distributed and no longer highly concentrated is as in the lime reactor exit. Result A pH increase of the output water of the lime reactor provides for a precipitation of the lime loosened before. The effect of the lime reactor is thus partly neutralized. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Simultaneous enterprise of lime reactor and "kalkwasser" Some sea water aquariums operated with a lime reactor and at the same time consists the refilling water of "kalkwasser". And sometimes the KH- and/or calcium values are nevertheless in the aquarium not sufficient. What can this lie? Are the devices laid out too small or do play nevertheless still different factors a role? As model one can understand oneself a sea water aquarium (pH 8) as a container, in which a lime reactor an calcium ion (approx.2+) and an Hydogencarbonat ion (HCO3-) gave. The hydrogencarbonate ion is converted fast into an carbonate ion (CO32), sees above. The two ions are complete free and to them meet and again for lime (CaCO3) form, last it for a very long time. Now comes however from the "kalkwasser" e.g. 100 calcium ions (approx.2+). In the container are now 101 calcium ions (approx.2+) and an carbonate ion (CO32). Now is the probability that an calcium ion finds the carbonate ion much more largely and thus much fast lime precipitates. This effect is to be also observed, if "kalkwasser" is given by hand directly to the aquarium. Then the place of the a run colors itself for short time whitish to milk-colorends. Result By the simultaneous employment of lime reactor and "kalkwasser" the carbonate becomes from the aquarium as lime pleases and is not the korallen any longer at the disposal. "kalkwasser" works against the lime reactor. Thus should be used only one method, "kalkwasser" or lime reactor, whereby with a lime reactor the KH content and the calcium content let adjust accurately. The increased CO2entry by the lime reactor can promote alga growth, be present before all if phosphate and nitrate to increased concentrations
  17. reef

    Auto top-up?

    NICKS , The conversation we had was about dosing co2 24/7 not kaltwasser. Do i detect a tiny bit of alzheimers. or do i have it? My ph gets to about 8.20 max during the day so dosing has not raised my PH much, I have found it impossible to raise the Ph above 8.2. I think a Ph of between 7.8 and 8.2 is fine as I have found not benefits in raising ph above these levels. Also kaltwasser has to be used up within 1-2 days as it will go off unless it is stirred every so often. There is also a theory that using kaltwasser and calcium reactor is a waste of time as they counter each other by adding too much ions in the aquarium. I think that is you only have a few SPS corals then dosing kaltwasser and adding a bit of calcium/buffers will be fine , calcium reactors are only required for tanks that have lots of SPS corals.
  18. reef

    Auto top-up?

    Well not with these systems. The aqua medic and the tunze have two float switches, so if the first switch fails then you have a second float switch which will shut the dosing pump off. also the Tunze system has a loud alarm which warms you if the water has gone past the second float switch. Also my dosing pump only doses slowly ,so worst case; it would take all day to overflow my sump. Dosing kaltwasser all day is better as you get a consistant PH all the time, dosing only at night could cause a spike in KH/calcium/PH So in fact for the system to fail would be like winning Lotto.
  19. reef

    Auto top-up?

    i doubt anyone will have one. i use tunze osmolator, works very well.
  20. why dont you get a double sump. will save space.
  21. Can the IKS or Neptune drive the TUNZE Streams? Nope, only turn them on or off (I was at Alois house and he couldn't get the streams running on the IKS, so is using a TUNZE wavemaker not his computer to drive and pulse them not true, my iks pulse my streams from 40% to 100% every 5 seconds.
  22. reef

    test kits??

    dont forget phostphate and magnesium
  23. if only it was that easy. all co2 bottles have to be certified by osh. boc will not fill bottles that dont have a LAB number. i am still waiting for approval by OSH which will be done hopefully this week.
  24. send me your email address and i will put you on my mailing list. www.aqua.net.nz i will be updating the web page with ohtos etc, however have not had time
  25. nicks, my dkh is 40 plus from my reactor so that is why it only runs 2-4hrs a day. No sales pitch, only the best reactor around. THE bi ionic stuff is too expensive in the long run.
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