chimera

what are you planning on keeping - what size and what contents?

Ahem. Green cap to Auck's please :lol:

not sure on running costs - layton or warren maybe able to answer that one!

This is a list of any and all other items outside your tank! Feel free to add to this. All are mandatory unless otherwise stated Nitrite test kit (optional) Nitrate test kit Phosphate test kit Magnesium test kit Calcium test kit KH/Alkalinity test kit pH meter (recommended) or pH test kit (if budget doesnt allow) Digital thermometer Refractometer (recommended) or Hydrometer (if budget doesnt allow) Water collection buckets/drum

in my opinion, i would consider an advanced reef setup something like the following: a 5x2x2 foot main tank (or larger) a 3 foot sump (or larger) a separate refugium (optional but recommended) 1 x eheim 1262 or iwaki for return pump (depending on head height, brands included here as an example) seio M1100+ or tunze streams for main tank circulation (i've included brands here as an example of flow rates) 2 x 300W heaters (or more depending on size) Kalkwasser (top-up) and/or Calcium Reactor (appropriately spec'd for tank size) Chiller (optional but recommended) temperature controller (optional but recommended) 2 or more 250W or higher metal halides 2 or more actinic's A medium/large sized skimmer 50 - 150+kg of LR (amount depending on bioload/budget and aesthetics) predominantely SPS with a smaller mix of lps and soft corals none or any number of fish/inverts within reason (based on tank size) anything else im missing? if you like, copy and paste the above and reply with changes or inclusions (and put them in bold if you can) we can add approximate prices later

i believe there is little price difference and would agree with this purely for the fact that they can keep a few sps as well. lets just say 2 x 150W or 2 x 250W or better if you are planning on keeping SPS corals as well (and not saying that 150W aren't sufficient for SPS - it is purely based on the price differential so why not get a higher intensity lighting system)

in my opinion, i would consider a basic reef setup something like the following: a 4x2x2 foot main tank (or thereabouts) a 3 foot sump 1 x eheim 1060 or 1262 for return pump 2 x hagen 802 powerheads or seio's M820's for main tank circulation (i've included brands here as an example of flow) 1 x 300W heater 2 x 150W metal halide or T5's a small/medium sized skimmer Fan cooled (or optionally a chiller if budget allows) 25 - 75kg of LR (amount depending on bioload/budget and aesthetics) a mixture of lps and soft corals 2 - 6 fish/inverts anything else im missing? if you like, copy and paste the above and reply with changes or inclusions (and put them in bold if you can) we can add approximate prices later

approximately the same? or the same? you dont have much 'approximate' to play with, 0.02 is a reasonable amount you are probably lucky more than anything else. have you ever noted how the water runs up the side of the hydrometer a mil or so? makes it so much harder to read. mine hydrometer and refractometer always read different, and the bloody thing wouldnt stop bobbing up and down!!!

cool, pick me up a couple hundred litres would you steve?

arkles bay for me

that's www.jaycar.co.nz

can we get a range of items here? i cant be bothered, but if someone can, take laytons list and put an adequate range of prices then a total from x to y. also put a 'mandatory' or 'optional' or 'optional but recommended' next to each and basic reason why. skimmer could be 'optional but recommended' in a FO.

i think iwaki is more an advanced reef item (specifically because we are trying to keep a basic reef in the right budget) yes, i think an eheim return pump from the sump is better, anything from a 1060 upwards.

ok, well you need some fish for starters...

how about we continue this discussion on the newly created threads for EACH type of tank that most people would want to setup? I've created all 3 now coz some people might want to have their input only based on their experience

This thread for info on an advanced REEF setup. Say tank size is 4 foot or larger (yes, there are good nano's around but let's leave this out for now) with predominantely SPS (and perhaps some LPS, softies) with a large amount of LR (live rock) and skimmer for filtration. List the items that you think are required and approximate cost range (depending on budget/cheap through to expensive) and pro's/con's of each item.

This thread for info on a basic reef setup. How about we say, for arguments sake , that the tank size is 4 foot with a predominantely softies and LR (live rock) for biological and aethetic reasons. (no SPS) List the items that you think are required and approximate cost range (depending on budget/cheap through to expensive) and pro's/con's of each item.

This thread for info on a Fish Only setup. How about we say, for arguments sake , that the tank size is 3 to 4 foot with a couple of fish and (even if it is a little) bit of LR (live rock) for biological and aethetic reasons? List the items that you think are required and approximate cost range (depending on budget/cheap through to expensive) and pro's/con's of each item.

cool, so create a new thread and make a start

:lol: so true. there is a site somewhere that shows how to quieten down your sump. i will see if i can find it. essentially the overflow pipe went down to the sump then horizontally across the water surface about 150mm (3/4 of the pipe was submerged, with the rest sticking out of the water) and with an end cap on. on the top of the horizontal pipe were heaps of (about 12mm?) holes drilled along it. the water went down then bubbled up and out the top holes and onto the surface of the water. the author said it was very quiet. makes sense, there would be no or little 'drop' of water

quite clearly. you are not doing yourself any favours by making smart arse remarks like that either. perhaps you should be a little more specific in the future, otherwise why do you think people have been misquoting you. well Control, you can make a start and show us what you believe will make a good successful beginners tank. start off with a FO tank, list the minimum items required and pro's and con's of each. we can then debate those finer points from there.

Control, dont take this personally, I am discussing this with you on a level ground here, if I have interpreted your comments incorrectly, then apologies - unfortunately the written word can be ambiguous at the best of times and is often the cause of many arguments on this site! This is how I have interpreted your comments in this thread... From this Layton responds with: Now you have to assume that quoting a figure like $500 in the first place means you believe it can be done for this price. Otherwise you would have said $2000, $3000 etc You did come back with Which is probably where things got muddled up. It needs to be stated that FO, FOWLR and full REEF tank as they differ greatly (but chances are the average beginner would not know this) However you then say Im sure you were meaning $500 for 2 clown fish in a 2 foot tank here? Ultimately, perhaps YOU could do it for that amount of money, given your experience. All I am saying is that I dont want to give the beginner the wrong impressions quoting figures anywhere near $500, given that they will need to spend at least double this just to maintain the tank. It is an addictive and expensive hobby, combining these two can suck alot of money from the consumers pocket! Yes I am implying this, not everyone, but I'd say a large majority of beginners. Even outside of the money factor, I think its just cruel to keep a couple of clowns in a small tank with next to nothing in it.... then again when you come back with "who said I wouldnt put anything in it" you're blowing the low budget theory out of the water (excuse the pun again) doesn't it? Anyway, this is an argument that is going around in circles. How about we get back on track. Who is going to establish a list of items with APPROXIMATE (or even better a range of) costs for each item? Each item should have a brief description of what it is/does with a "mandatory" or "optional" next to it and reasons why. As said before, this could then become a sticky for anyone interested.

attacked your tank specifically? i dont think so. attacking your theory that a beginner can setup a successful small tank for under $500 given that they have no experience and initially no idea what they are doing? yes - given that they are BETTER OFF spending more money initially and having a tank that will not cause them undue stress, time and money. Just remember - it's all about the BEGINNER here - not you, not me, not anyone else who have had moderate to advanced experience in reefing. Repeating myself from before - it appears that you have vast knowledge of this hobby Control, but to expect a beginner to jump in on the hobby and expect a small tank to run fine I disagree with. They will spend more money attempting to fix it when things go wrong. There is no doubting the initial/up front costs could be as little as $500,... but how long will that last? Even if it does go smoothly and they dont run into problems, it does not take long to double this cost JUST on test kits and other almost necessary devices (eg: refractometer etc) All everyone is asking here (I believe) is to look at the big picture.

When I hear 'marine tank' I think of a FO system - in other words just water and just fish. Nothing else. When I hear 'reef tank' I think of LR, corals, fish etc I don't have any reservation that a 'marine tank' (or should I say marine bowl ) with 2 clown fish, a basic air-driven filter and nothing more could easily be done for $500. However, I think what we are all saying here is if you are a BEGINNER then it is seriously not recommended, I will explain why... Because it sounds like you have been in the hobby for quite sometime, is it fair to say that the knowledge of knowing how to keep these clown fish and their environment happy is based on your experience thus far? Do you truly believe the average Joe off the street (and thus 'a beginner') is going to know how to ensure the survival of clown fish in a small tank straight off the bat? If they put seawater and a clownfish in a bowl, then started learning, I'd give the clown fish 20% chance of survival. IF the beginner is does their research first and is highly dedicated - alot higher. The reason I ask is I have seen SO many people who cant even keep a GOLDFISH alive let alone anything that lives in saltwater. The biggest difference we are all arguing over is.. WHAT SORT OF SALTWATER TANK are we talking about? FO, FOWLR or REEF? As an example, and as RnB stated above I also have 150kg of LR in my system, @ $10/kg that's $1,500 worth of ROCK - let alone a $1,500 skimmer etc I would not start a reef tank without LR and a skimmer. There's $3k (depending on size of tank of course, smaller tank would need 1/4 of this but that's still $800.) Do we all agree the smallest tank for starting out is 3 foot (or about 120 litres?)

You live and earn NZL dollars or you live and earn UK pounds. You cant convert to NZL dollars and you cant convert to UK pounds. If we pay NZL$1.50 here for a coke, does that mean it should be 60 pence in England? I dont think so. You pay $10/kg here for live (cured) rock - that's the norm - although it's 2nd hand :lol: Just wait for others to break down their tanks and buy it that way. Otherwise, pay the same price from LFS for dead rock.