ryanjury

Sorry to hear about your loss There is quite a bit of info on the net on dropsy http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&q= ... arch&meta= This one is pretty concise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_Dropsy It quotes water conditions and food as 2 possible causes and says it results in a bacterial infection. As your water was fine and all of them got it then I would say somehow you introduced something via your food, I don't feed bloodworms at all because they are known to cause problems but don't think that would have caused all of them to die.. Maybe something in the mozzie wrigglers? Or one fish got run down and sick and the others caught it? Do you have the 5m with 1f? It is likely all the "spare" males would have been beaten and maybe stressed while the pair were breeding? I have seen drospy like symptoms a few times, just randomly though it has never spread the last few times I have managed to get the fish out and treat it with salt/antibiotics. The fish have recovered (scales gone down and resumed normal diet) and after a month of being clear they were reintroduced to the original tank, neither of the 2 I treated ever bred or lasted long after being treated so think it damaged them internally.

Yeah id take the gourami's out if you want to keep them 600L is awesome, are you planning on putting the dolphins in there eventually?

That's great news Congrats to both of them and I hope all is going well I must send an email..

How big are your tanks? Ideally you should only really keep the dolphins with the pleco, dolphins are not really suitable tank mates for angels or gourami's, some people like to say they are ok to make a sale but it they are not.. Although dolphins are pretty laid back for africans they do get big and can pack a punch when trying to stake a claim, not to mention the differences in preferred water conditions (yes fish will adjust but it is not ideal). I would recommend that if you don't keep them with africans at least keep them with other larger more robust fish that can handle themselves (large cichilds, large school fish silver sharks etc). How big are the dolphins? You are probably having no problems with them because they are small but I have had people who have brought them off me and decided (against my advice and without my knowledge) to put them in community tanks and they have wiped them out once they reached 5-6cm. You would also need a descent sized tank probably 5ft or more for when your 13 dolphins do mature (assuming they are young). http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/c_moorii.php If I was you I would setup one of your tank for africans with the dolphins and one pleco, and the other for a community type setup.

Epsom salt is a very very good way of getting the fish pooping, probably no point in scaring the poop out of them except for an absolute last resort, good luck I hope things improve for the discus sometimes these things do just happen

What a constructive post I feel someone is posting because of who they know not what they know Have you already purchased some of these Asti's MJ? Whatever you would like to talk about or imply regarding your stroking should probably stay with you in your own home and not be voiced on a forum with younger members its not really appropriate.. Of course I got the fish and they didn't turn out as expected, they are hybrids being advertised and passed on as a pure fish with "no doubt". Just in case you were wondering I didn't buy these fish off trademe, and it wouldn't have mattered if I did most of the descent african breeders have sold things on there and should still stand by their fish regardless of where they sold them? Makes no sense at all that everything on trademe is rubbish if the seller is good and has good fish then selling on trademe doesn't make them dodgy or ok to sell rubbish, sounds like you just don't like trademe? I would love for you to teach me about tank stocking some day, very happy for you to try and justify your comment about my tank (I have more than one?) being overstocked when to my knowledge I have never met you nor have you seen my tanks? And my tanks and fish are happy and well stocked/balanced if they were overstocked I would have problems, have been keeping fish for a few years now so think I have a rough idea what I am doing and how to keep the fish happy I think Frenchy was trying to warn people about these dodgy fish by posting it here, if you had shelled out good $$'s for them and found out they were hybrids years and $$'s later you would feel ripped off. At least people can now make informed decisions on these fish and at least know to research things and know what to expect when buying fish and make their own decisions. I am glad you know the seller as I said in my previous post I have got plenty of fish from him and they are great I have no problems with him there is nothing personal here, I just wanted to get to the bottom of the fish I got and I have made my decision and got an outcome I am happy with.

Yeah there are theories about the whole feeding cold blooded animals warm blooded fats they are not designed to process it and the extra fat has to go somewhere, theories are feeding these types of food while the fish may eat them shorten the fishes lives and cause problems. Also I think the fish food companies do extensive research on the dietary needs of fish and try and tailor the food towards this, the cat/dog food companies will do the same for dogs/cats which will require different things. I don't really think anyone can put their hand on their heart and say it is or isn't bad but I don't think it would be good.. My daughter would happily eat lollies for breakfast, KFC for lunch and MC D's for tea every day, it doesn't mean it is good for her There are ways and means of feeding lots of fish cheaply, quality flake can be purchased in bulk, live food can be cultured and you can make large quantities of frozen food cheaply.

Tank looks good elusive I am sure it will go through many many different lay outs and you will find what you like.. The fish you have won't really care what you do as long as they have some places to hide and feel safe.

I remember this old thread was your tank one of the ones these guys were having trouble with? viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26650&hilit=620T+breaking The search works really well

I don't think the blues are as stoppy as the normals but can't be sure.. If you breed 2 blues together they will throw normals you need to breed them back to a normal female and then offspring to get a % blues... Here is a bit of info here search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&keywords=blue+dempsey&start=15

Lip locking can be sizing each other out for breeding... It can also be 2 males fighting to see who is the boss.. Not a good behaviour to rely upon when trying to sex fish.. If you see them hanging around together and maybe cleaning rocks or an area of the tank that is a good sign

Hey Anvil this topic has been discussed alot here are some search results.. search.php?keywords=sexing+blue+rams&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search This forum now has a really good search engine so before posting just do a quick search and you might find your answers without posting.. But in general males have longer 2nd and 3rd fins of dorsal, females have pink belly's, some people talk about blue dots in the spot but I don't go back that.. Good luck and pics would help too. Also how old are they?

I would probably starve the fish for 5 days, maybe load the tanks up with daphnia before I left or something, or even ask a local fish keeping friend to feed them for you.. From memory I have seen people say good things about the eheim auto feeders but I don't think they're cheap.

Cheers Brad I try my best, unfortunately I wont be able to or be trying to tell anyone else who passes these on what they are, it is just not worth the abuse or hassle it would cause, hopefully some have had a heads up over this thread Livingart you might have to get out the scalpel and trim them to make them the right shape too Maybe you can just get them and breed them and sell them as something new... (I know livingart wont do this which is why they are going there). Is anyone going that way anytime soon these fish are too big to ship. kd I have had a quick look only female afra I can see is part of a pair and is definate mbuna type shape and looks like my afra female when she is stressed or got a fright and lost her bars. Smidey as I have said to you in the past everyone has their views on hybrids some love them some hate them, it generally depends on what they are producing at the time. To me (and this is just my personal opinion) I keep and breed hybrids that breed true and I know are hybrids ie my dragonsbloods and OB peacocks which I like I pass them on as linebred hybrids and noone at any stage of buying them is lead to believe they are anything but that. Where I hate hybrids is when you buy a fish with a scientiffic name it is not what it is supposed to be and turns out to be hybrids. Ideally random hybrids shouldn't be passed around because they less we dilute our gene pulls with rubbish the better for the future of all species in NZ, but they will never disappear so people should at least be responsible. Spoon yes I don't want to destroy them, but there are not many places I would trust to not breed from them, I feel the temptation to jump on the band wagon and breed and sell them as asti C. to make some $$'s would tempt alot of people and put more hybrids out there. A friend of mine suggested livingart and I know he is a very responsible keeper of many animals and hopefully they will be enjoyed. Most african cichlids can and do cross producing viable babies I am unsure how this happens I know others are sterile, I think the fact most africans are genetically similar might have something to do with it..

Cheers guys I was wondering if I had done the right thing or not, it is very hard questioning someone who is supposed to be "higher" up and more respected in your hobby than yourself.. I was trying to ask for advice and not come across as an idiot, even in the face of his replies rubbishing my findings. To me a spade is a spade and sometimes this does offend people. I am not good with ID's but it only took me 5mins, checking the first profile I always check (cichlid-forum), it surprises me how many experienced keepers had them before me it should have stood out like anything from 1".. To me the fact that he posted an example pic of a nice male and these are completely different should have him scrambling I don't think he grew any out far enough to tell.. I would love to blindly believe in myself so much that nothing nobody said would have me admit that I would have a mistake. Oh well end of they day I didn't end up paying for them, I know what they are so I have a direction to go with them I have even found them a good home where I trust they wont be bred from (thanks livingart) just have to get them there and were sorted The thing that really grinds my gears is the people who have brought these fish and blindly believe they are pure and will keep breeding and selling them.. Oh well hopefully this thread has warned a few people. End of the day it is very much buyer beware I think I offended a few by doing what I always do and researching the hell out of ANYTHING that I buy from ANY source. At the end of the day I like to breed and spread pure fish and if anything is wrong with them I will stand by them and cannot fall back on who sold them to me. Anyway hopefully this has taught someone something, no doubt there are people reading it and getting angry or having a good old "talking behind someones back" session. I would urge any of those people who disagree to post and voice/discuss your objections Hopefully these fish can be viewed at livingart wildlife park in the future.

Chocolates are cool I had one for a while before I sent it down to Nav an extra large male he was a wicked fish unfortunately he didn't make the trip, if you want some we can sort out some freight too Olly Here are some pics of Navs he posted a while ago.. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34073&p=372592&hilit=chocolate#p372592

lol Frenchy I didn't want to drag that here as I didn't want a fight to break out here.. I also know that there aren't many in NZ who have the knowledge or ability to correctly ID a fish that isn't very common here, any opinions may or may not be swayed by the fact I am a regular poster here. I also know that many who know what they are doing with africans in NZ will know who bred these and this will sway peoples opinions as they will base it on what they know of this person not the fish.. As you can see by the trademe link the evidence and photo's did absolutely nothing to warn people about what they were buying so buyer beware doesn't work. Anyway a few pics. Male Male from http://www.african-cichlid.com/Calliptera.htm (same colour strain as "example" photo on auction which was not the blue strain.) Male (taken by Ad Konnings from http://www.africanfish.info/index.php?id=245&L=0) A few more pics here http://www.ciklidbladet.se/artregister/ ... asp?ID=300 Plenty of links to pics here http://www.african-cichlid.com/Calliptera.htm To me the are completely off in colour and shape, also the fish are supposed to have egg spots to belong to the Astatotilapia genus, "In keeping with the Astatotilapia designation, the anal fin is adorned with true occuli in a single row." (from http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/a ... iptera.php again another respectable site). They are supposed to mature or at least colour up at 1.5-2" http://www.kcff.net/fish/oldworld/astat ... rticle.htm but the ones on the auction were unsexable at 4-8cm. As you can see I have done alot of research on these guys I was hoping mainly to stumble across some rare variant so that what I was finding didn't mean I had hybrids I should also mention that the guy I got the fish off is being great about it, he hasn't made me pay for the fish or anything and has been working with me to try and resolve the issue I have no gripes with him at all. He suggested trying to contact the original breeder (I happened to find his auction and I had no other way to do it) so I tried to give him my email to talk about it on there, and the rest is history A picture tells a thousand words that's for sure, so does the opinion of a moderator on a world wide respected specialist cichlid forum, I know these fish are hybrids and now so does the original seller whether he wants to admit and deal with it or not. I just feel sorry for the people out there who have shelled out good money to own them, yes everyone makes mistakes but it is how we deal with these mistakes that separates us out.. I know if I had been approached with a similar situation the first thing I would do is say sorry and try and work out what went wrong rather than rubbish everyone and their opinions I should add that I have at least 5 species of fish through the same channels are they are awesome some of the best fish I have had.. There is just something gone wrong with these Asti's. The worst thing IMO is we don't have a nice new strain of fish to be enjoyed and it is very likely we will never see these fish as they are not on the list. Anyway enough said these fish will be going to livingart wildlife park (still trying to find them a ride) to cruise around in the big malawi display tank and not be bred from, or destroyed so no more are spread around from me, unfortunately I cannot control any other purchasers choices in the matter.

lol nice looking tank man.. Where did you get that retro looking gravel from? And is it neutral? If it wasn't for all the south americans it would make a great african tank Add more africans they look great in groups haha Just kidding.. Is everyone getting along?

Gutted I am sorry to hear about this.. Unfortunately it does happen to us all at one time or another in this hobby I hope you find some nice new fish to repopulate your tank with and enjoy growing up again I also find it very weird that whitespot killed your fish that fast? They were fine for a week and then you noticed spots and then fish dead the next day? I have seen (and purchased off trademe sight unseen) fish pretty much totally covered in head to tail whitespot and had them recover, were their any other symptoms? Would hate for you to get new fish if something else is going on as well..

lol did all the rummies die They're usually pretty good? I don't think you quarantined for long enough and the neons were carrying it, I wouldn't back myself to examine all 40 neons without missing a tiny little white spot on one of their fins. When you increased the temp and the neons were stressed from temp/move/discus trying to eat them id say the white spot took hold. It would have to have started with the neons because if you had done something wrong to stress your fish in your tank the clowns would have been covered in it they always got it for me because I did cold water changes so I got rid of mine. End of the day your lucky its only whitespot and very easy to clear up Watch your meds with the clown loaches though

lol is Grant telling tales The filter should be designed to effectively filter even doing 2400LPH in theory the bigger the flow the more times the water goes through the filter the more your water is filtered.. My FX5 is rated at 3500LPH and does a very good job of filtering a big messy african tank. I like aqua one filters, and fluvals are good too (but pricey) I have 2 aqua ones, an FX5 and a 404 (my least favourite) I think brands and stuff are all down to personal preference, there are some out there who will only buy eheim (probably the same people who only get their car serviced by dealers and only buy genuine parts) because they believe they are the best and they will get a longer life out of the much higher purchase price. I would stay away from all the random new Chinese imports. They maybe copies of other popular filters but I would be waiting for them to be around a while be supported for parts and also see what people think of them after they have been using them for a while. There are some cheapies that are around and work well aqua one and jebo (filters are ok I find the taps are a bit weak but I am rough) to name a couple. I don't think you need a 2400LPH filter for your tank, your tank is only 215L sure it would be awesome but an overkill. Ideally you want to filter your tank so your filters turn over 4-5times your tank volume an hour, so a 1200LPH filter (with media only flowing roughly 900LPH) would do this by itself. Biologically I don't think you will need any more bio media than what a 1200LPH filter would take, with your regular water changes you should be fine. The UV is down to personal preference I don't own one or have I ever been in a situation where I wanted/needed one but others may swear by them. Good luck

Yeah was going to suggest the neons may have been the problem in the high temp.. How long did you quarantine them and what temp did you quarantine them at? Neon's are known not to cope too well with the temp, also probably coupled with the fact (reading your other post) the discus have been trying to eat them probably not too good. Maybe dropping the temp to 28 after you have got rid of the whitespot would be a compromise for neons/discus? I usually try salt first just because its easy to get, cheap, relatively natural and also doesn't kill your filter which can cause more problems for you.. Good luck I hope you get it sorted..

I thought that raising the temp just sped up the life cycle of the white spot, because you can only treat it in the water increasing the temp means the spores get into the water faster/more often so you can treat it.. I am pretty sure you can still treat discus with whitespot cure or salt, it is the scaleless fish that are more sensitive to meds. A UV light will kill any free swimming spores in your water as they go past it. I don't know if UV is 100% effective at exposing all of the water to enough UV to wipe it out completely I guess that would depend on its design etc.. I don't think running a UV 100% of the time to prevent white spot is a very good idea it wouldn't be very cost effective (bulbs only have a effective life) maybe running it one day a week or when needed. Only real way to prevent white spot is to Qtine all fish/plants and avoid stress.

As Ira said UV is no good unless your algae is in the water, and even then you are better to find the cause and fix it that way.. The only way to get rid of the algae is to get something to eat it (bristlenoses are what I use) also the mbuna will munch away on it so it is a good natural food source for them. Or you can remove all your rocks and scrub it off all the time, cut back on lighting etc. I too have no experience with those filters I would recommend the tried and true CF1200 because they're awesome Anyway good luck with the tank, what fish are you planning for it?

This just sounds like cichlid aggression to me sounds like the bigger bossier one is throwing his weight around.. Plus having 4 oscars in a 4ft tank wouldn't help matters there isn't enough room for them to each have their own space or places to hide, most people I know keep a pair in a 5-6ft+ tank..